Question about GWR train formations



Many modellers and preserved railways do this, but in practice they could be mixed up any which way - although I can't speak for the GWR.
--
Martin S.

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Because when the train reaches its destination, the loco runs round it and hooks onto the other end ready for the return journey. If the brake-3rd were last it now becomes first. It is better to have it in the middle.
There are plenty of pictures showing trains made up this way.
--
Jane



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Sorry if this is starting to sound like your wee cousin, but why is it better in the middle?

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"LDosser" wrote

When the train reversed at the branch terminus that would mean the brake coach would be at the front, not that it would really matter with a continuous braked train - the brake van really only provides accomodation for the guard and a parking brake.
John.
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Thanks. When did the switch to all continuous braking occur?
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"LDosser" wrote

I can't give you chapter & verse on that, but suspect for passenger trains it was during the Victorian era.
Unfitted goods (freight) trains just about survived into the 1980s (from memory).
John.
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Passenger stock was all alto braked by the later 19th century, following some nasty accidents. From
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/1-hist/01hist.htm
In spite of various accidents during the 1870's the railway companies had resisted Government attempts to introduce more sophisticated brakes on passenger trains. This was partly because of cost but also they were unable to agree on a standard system. Following a serious accident in Ireland in which 80 people died, many of them children, automatic continuous brakes became mandatory on passenger stock in 1889.
Some info on UK passener stock:
http://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/00-app3-4/ap3-coach.htm
My own interest is mainly goods services, but there is a bit about vacuum and air brake systems in
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/4-rstock/04arstock2f.htm
Most British companies opted for the vacuum brake, and generally they adopted the Gresham brake (patented in 1878), but several British companies opted for the fast acting Westinghouse air-brake. An express passenger train weighing five hundred tons and travelling at 60 miles per hour on the level would be stopped within 360 yards by either system.
The Great Eastern, the North Eastern and the London Brighton & South Coast Railways were still air-braked at the time of the 1923 grouping. The North British Railway had used the Westinghouse brake but was in the process of changing to the more popular vacuum brake by the time of the grouping. As rolling stock travelled through the system the use of differing kinds of brake became a problem. Some vehicles were fitted with one kind of brake and through pipes to allow connection of differently equipped vehicles to either side (this was called 'piped' stock). A few were equipped with both air and vacuum brakes (called 'dual fitted'). Both these options cost money and added complication to an already complex network so by about 1930 all British companies had switched to the Automatic Vacuum Brake (AVB). On the continent and in the USA the Westinghouse air brake became the norm and all vehicles had to be 'fitted' hence wagons intended for cross-channel ferry working between Europe and Britain were 'dual-fitted' with both air and vacuum brakes.
In America a law had been passed in 1893 which stipulated that all railway vehicles, be they freight or passenger, had to be equipped with automatic air brakes. On the Continent air brake 'fitted' stock was the norm by the time of the First World War. In Britain however the fitting of automatic brakes was considered inappropriate to low value goods vehicles intended to travel in slow goods trains. Some unfitted wagons had the flexible connection hoses but were simply 'piped' as described above. These piped wagons could be marshalled into a fully braked train, allowing the automatic brakes on the remainder of the train to operate normally. The maximum permitted speed of the train was then determined by the number of piped vehicles in the rake (see also Freight Operations - Freight Train Speeds). Only wagons fitted with a continuous automatic braking system were allowed in trains travelling at any speed. In the context of goods traffic anything over 40 mph was classed as 'express' up to the mid 1980's.
HTH
Mike
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wrote:

Usual practice pre- and post-nationalisation was to put the brake in the centre of the set. This meant that on a runaround at the branch terminus, the brake remained in the same position - in other words, the same number of vehicles behind the brake remained the same ie. the minimum necessary. Vehicles with first class accommodation were always positioned where they could be monitored by staff for unauthorised riders. This usually meant the brake vehicle.
All of this is a generalisation, and if you're modelling a sprcific branch you need to see a copy of the carriage set working diagrams. These will also acquaint you with regional/company practices and policies for carriage set formations. Unfortunately these publications are quite hard to find - railway historical societies are a good starting point.
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snipped-for-privacy@nowhere.com wrote:

I suppose another rationale for having the brake compartment in the middle was that it gave the guard the best view of both end of the train when giving the start signal (green flag, and whistle to warn the passengers).
On the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway, the coaches are marshalled in semi-permanent rakes of, I think, six, with the brake compartment at the Keighley end. On the outbound (uphill) trip, the loco is at the front end facing forward. At Oxenhope it runs around, and makes the return trip in reverse with the brake compartment right next to it. Other preserved lines probably have similar practices.
In BR steam days there was a 3-coach push-pull set with the loco attached to the Oxenhope end. I imagine the guard's/brake compartment was in the end coach which housed the remote driving controls. This was briefly replaced by a 2-car DMU before BR closed the line in 1962. Although the preservation society's magazine has been called Push And Pull since the mid-1960s, they have never operated trains in push-pull mode, although on special operating days with extra service they sometimes operate with a loco at each end to reduce turnaround time.
Of course, push-pull operation is now the norm on loco-hauled mainline passenger trains in the UK. Here in the Greater Toronto area, GO Transit operates push-pull commuter trains with up to 12 bi-level coaches accommodating around 200 passengers each, propelled by a single 4,000hp MP40 diesel loco capable of 93mph. The driving trailers look like other coaches, rather than mimicking the loco or power car. Twelve other operators in Canada and the US operate similar bi-level coaches.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_BiLevel_Coach
--
Martin S.

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Must confess am amazed that other companies differed from LMS in such a basic working practice. Also suprised that Bob Essery doesnt mention it, although he has a lot of examples from the LMS he does make the effort to mention when things were different for other areas. Backtrack is a good starting point.
Cheers, Simon
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Also if you look at most 'first generation' 2-car DMU sets the brake portion is generally adjacent to the connection between the two cars.
John.
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So it is. I never noticed that!
--
Martin S.

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On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 15:55:27 +0000, nemo wrote:

The reason for the van being in the middle is purely practical - loading and unloading parcels/milk/etc that used to be carried. The van would usually stop adjacent to the station building, thus reducing the distance stuff had to be lugged.
Cheers Richard
--
I have become...............comfortably numb

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wrote:

That makes sense!
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wrote:

Perhaps in more recent times it may, but around grouping the passenger was the priority and porters could walk 10 miles if it saved passengers a few yards. Parcels etc would be loaded onto trolleys and porters knew exactly where carraige would stop so they would be ready at the right point.
Cheers, Simon
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Porters eh, that brings back memories. About 30 years ago I returned to the UK and asked at the station about PLA (Passenger Luggage in Advance), the lad had to go and find an Old Bloke to sort out what it was and find out they didn't do it any more.
One of Ena Sharpels better comments was 'She's getting very luggage in advance these days'
Porters . . . (stares into distance through window in need of a clean)
Mike
Regards
Mike
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Christmas tree? In January?
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Orthodox Christmas (or so he claims) ;-)
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message

Unorthodox Christmas? (I wasn't aware Orthodox Jews celebrated Christmas :-)
--
Jane



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Greek Orthodox Church?
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