Something for the north - at last

: I only think this represents opportunities lost, as I'm : re that sound is likely to be a short-lived phenomena, : if only because of the cost. :

Not so sure, once DCC chipped stock becomes the norm manufacturers might well find that it's cheaper to just offer sound as standard, the hardware doesn't cost that much, it's the work involved to find the space within the loco and engineer the firmware that cost - a parallel could be drawn with air-con in cars, once a high cost option, now it's getting increasingly difficult to find some car makes/models *without* air-con.

"Jerry" wrote

I've got several sound-equipped locos (none of which are Hornby, due to the previously mentioned poor choice of prototype liveries) and I have to say that after a while the sound becomes tiresome.

We've already seen a marked reluctance amongst our customer base to pay the ever-increasing prices demanded by Hornby for their standard loco (and rolling stock) models.

Prices for sound-equipped locos will have to drop significantly for them to become every day purchases for the modelling fraternity at large. Sure, really keen enthusiasts will shell out for some sound fitted models, but when they've accumulated three or four will the majority of them really want more?

John.

You missed my point, there might not be an option to buy a non sound equipped model, the user option will be if you enable the sound via the DCC chip, the difference in cost will be little or nothing as the economies of scale will come into play. At the moment sound is seen by the manufactures as a cash-cow, fit a couple of quid's worth of electronics into a loco and put an extra £xx on the MRP price.

"Jerry" wrote

You missed my point too Jerry, that customers are already complaining about the cost of Hornby's latest offerings even without sound; even a small extra cost may push the price beyond the point of acceptability to more & more people. As that reluctance increases, then the volume of sales will decline and further push up the costs.

You're also assuming that DCC will become the norm. I not completely convinced about that, and it may only be a transitional fad which could easily give way to - say rechargeable on-board battery operated radio controlled models.

John.

I think that might say more about your customers John!

The problem is that people have been spoilt, remember that not so long ago most people still talked about their ONE (locomotive) purchase of the year, now many talk about two, three or more per year, the same sorts of complaints occoured back in the late

: the cost of Hornby's latest offerings even without sound; even a small extra : cost may push the price beyond the point of acceptability to more & more

But that was my point, the warehouse door price probably won't be any more, due to the economies of scale.

: people. As that reluctance increases, then the volume of sales will decline : and further push up the costs.

Or drive costs/labour rates down in China, remember that China is about the only modernised country in the world that can (by state order) reduce such costs to keep business. Of course Hornby and Bachmann might just decide you reduce their own profit margines.

: : You're also assuming that DCC will become the norm. I not completely : convinced about that, and it may only be a transitional fad which could : easily give way to - say rechargeable on-board battery operated radio : controlled models. :

Doubtful, unless Ofcom have a complete rethink on the unlicensed RF spectrum in the UK...

I would suggest that DCC is here to stay, what might change is how trains are operated via DCC, we already have a thread about using a computer as an interface, I suggest that control will be either directly via the keys on a keyboard and a 'jog-shuttle' wheel, via a pre-programmed timetable of movements (real time or accelerated) or a combination of both - for example on the through station and fiddle yard type layouts, the operator(s) could be in control of the signals and station area/shunting type movements but not the 'supply of trains' IYSWIM.

You may well be right. I would quite like to see the sound pack sold as a separate item that you could order separately to retro-fit or have fitted to any livery at the factory, ordered though your retailer of choice. You're probably going to tell me they already do that and I'm to dim to spot it :-) Guy

Over here the difference between a DC and a DCC/sound loco is about $100. That's pretty consistent. Sound decoders costs from about $20 to about $85. Speakers cost $10 or less, and baffles are under $5. So a minimal DCC/sound installation in a DC loco will cost around $35 to $100. I infer that the price difference is on the high side, but not too much so, considering that there will be mark-ups all along the line.

Of course there's no guarantee that after-market components will deliver the same quality as factory installed ones.

cheers, wolf k.

: : Over here the difference between a DC and a DCC/sound loco is about : $100. That's pretty consistent. Sound decoders costs from about $20 to : about $85. Speakers cost $10 or less, and baffles are under $5. So a : minimal DCC/sound installation in a DC loco will cost around $35 to : $100. I infer that the price difference is on the high side, but not too : much so, considering that there will be mark-ups all along the line.

Assuming that the above is the retail cost, what we need to know is the unit cost at the component level and in production run quantities - information that might not be so easy to obtain without inside contacts - only then can a guess be made as to what the retail price might be should sound decoder systems become a standard fitment and the economies of production scale kick in.

Yes, that all makes sense. The issue here, for me anyway, is that there is only one chassis but multiple liveries; I suspect that I am wrong about the idea though because I suspect they batch-manufacture and then sell from stock rather than using JIT techniques. Guy

A good rule of thumb for MR items is a street price of 4 to 5x the component cost. Out of that comes manufacturing, programming, testing, packaging, advertising, freight, manufacturers margin, distributor margin, dealer margin.

Once you get passed the first few 100s of units the drop in component and maufacturing costs for volume is pretty small compared to the initial price drop for the first few 100.

If you're making 10s of 1,000,000s and can dedicate a whole line 24/7 to one product, then you can save a bit more but there just isn't the volume for MR products.

MBQ

"Wolf K" wrote

The cost of accurately recording the actual sounds does not seem to have been factored into the cost of manufacturing the decoder. Where specific steam sounds are required, engines have had to be steamed for the sole purpose and put through all operations which can create sound. This has naturally been done on impoverished "heritage" lines which need to recover their full costs and more importantly earn something extra for the coffers. This applies equally to the loco owners of course.

For their Duchess sound, Hornby had recordings made on Duchess of Sutherland and unwittingly made a feature of the airpump which is unique in the class to this one loco. I understand that the second batch of City of Sheffield has had this removed.

Riddles

: If you're making 10s of 1,000,000s and can dedicate : a whole line 24/7 to one product, then you can save : a bit more but there just isn't the volume for MR products.

But many of these electronic items are manufactured by the

It's just the final assembly that is unique, how much does it cost to substitute one IC for another (bearing in mind that the pin layout is the same) and how much will adding a speaker to every loco cost extra - it's any? The only really specialist component is the firmware, designing it and then flashing the chip, so that a Deltic sounds like a Deltic and not a O8 Shunter or worse still some N.American diesel!

: The only really specialist : component is the firmware, designing it and then flashing the : chip, so that a Deltic sounds like a Deltic and not a O8 Shunter : or worse still some N.American diesel! :

And just to add, having read "Riddles" comments about the costs of authoring unique firmware for different locos, the extra cost of a *non* generic firmware could be the optional extra (rather than the basic sound option), being offered at the point of sale - the dealer would flash the firmware - or as a internet download in the same way as (free) Bios updates, as Third-party software or commercially like iTunes (or what ever) downloads.

"Wolf K" wrote

The few after-market installations I've seen have provided signifantly better sound quality than the factory installed examples, in particular in 'Deltic' models. But then they have been fitted with multiple speakers to get the deep base sounds.

John.

John.

I suspect he means the sound samples rather than firmware.

MBQ

I thought we were talking about DCC (sound) decoders. Production runs are way less than 1,000,000s for decoders.

MBQ

: > But many of these electronic items are manufactured : > by the 1,000,000s.

: I thought we were talking about DCC (sound) decoders. : Production runs are way less than 1,000,000s for decoders.

We are, OTOH are you implying that the **components** that make up "DCC (sound ) decoders" are unique items of electronics, not used or manufactured for other circuits?

No, what I'm getting at is that you only get the 1,000,000 off price for components if you buy 1,000,000. Anyone making decoders, in much lower volumes, will be paying the 1,000 off price, say, unless there's another side of their business using huge volumes of ther same components.

MBQ

I suspect he means the sound samples rather than firmware.

MBQ

Dont want no dealer flashing his firmware at my locos thank you.

Cheers, Simon