American Chopper episode got even more reckless

Dissolved under pressure into the acetone soaked into the cylinder media. As I understand it, your standard acetylene cylinder only has a couple teaspoons worth of "free" acetylene at high pressure in it at any given moment - an amount insufficient to sustain a deflagration reaction to the point where it could be dangerous. When you draw that amount, however much it is, out of the tank, the pressure in the tank drops, allowing more acetylene to "boil" out of the acetone, rebuilding the pressure, lather, rinse, repeat until there's no more acetylene (or at least not enough to be useful) left dissolved in the acetone. Even if that small amount of "free" acetylene was enough to get a small deflagration reaction going, the resulting pressure increase makes it self-damping, since the rising pressure forces more more acetylene into solution with the acetone soaked into the cylinder media, keeping it from being able to participate in and help perpetuate the deflagration reaction. The "boiling" process isn't the result of heat, but a drop below the pressure needed to keep the acetylene dissolved in the acetone

- Kind of like taking water to very low pressure. At the right pressure for the temperature, you can get a "full rolling boil" going in a container of water at any temperature above freezing. You won't be able to *COOK* anything with it, but it'll look exactly the same as the pan of water boiling away merrily on the stove at 212 degrees F. Acetylene "boiling" out of solution to replace what you've tapped out of the cylinder is exactly the same mechanism in operation, just working on different materials.

Additionally, acetylene cylinder are *NOT* hollow cylinders, the way oxygen and other cylinders are - If you were to break one open somehow (HIGHLY not recommended outside of properly equipped facilities - unless you *WANT* to die) you'd find that it's almost entirely filled with a highly porous block of something that looks much like concrete. This "rock sponge" is what soaks up the acetone that the acetylene dissolves in, preventing you from getting spits and spurts of raw liquid acetone coming out the end of your torch. Gaps and voids in it are a certifiable Very Bad Thing(TM), which is one of the (if not the main) reasons that dropping an acetylene tank any distance is a Bad Thing(TM) and grounds for having that tank pulled from service and stored someplace "bomb-proof" until it's been inspected and tested to be sure the "stuffing" is still intact and working as intended. If you ever get handed a cylinder that "rattles when rocked" (something *INSIDE* the cylinder rattling, not "stuff attached to the cylinder") immediately hand it back - *GENTLY* - and demand another one. The "rattler" almost certainly has damaged media in it, and is unsafe. It's unlikely, due to the pre-fill inspection, that you'll ever get one, but "unlikely" and "impossible" aren't equal.

Unlike oxygen or other tanked gasses, filling an acetylene cylinder is a fairly time-intensive task - They don't just hook it up to a supply and open both valves then wait for the pressure to equalize - They have to let the fresh acetylene into the cylinder at a relatively slow rate so that it gets a chance to dissolve into the acetone. Depending on the size, filling one properly is a process that can take anywhere from a couple hours, to several days, or even longer for really monster-sized ones. Failure to fill properly can easily result in a bomb that's ready to go off at any moment, in response to any (or no apparent) provocation. Which is why, when you take an acetylene cylinder in to be refilled, the most common practice is to simply hand you another one, and put the one you brought in over with the rest of the "needs to be refilled" ones, rather than filling your cylinder "while-u-wait". If you want *THE SAME CYLINDER* back, you're going to have to wait for a while. But since the places that fill them have to inspect, certify, etc. etc. etc. every cylinder that goes through, "This other randomly selected cylinder of the same capacity" is effectively identical to "The cylinder I own and brought in to be filled", even if it isn't actually the same cylinder. Which means, in effect, that when Joe Sixpack "buys an acetylene cylinder", he's not really buying the cylinder itself - he's buying the right to use any single member of a "pool" of who-knows-how-many of that size cylinder, any of which is effectively identical to the one he "bought".

Reply to
Don Bruder
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Deflagration is what you _see_ but not what happens. Deflagration merely describes a "burning with a flame" situation, but doesn't describe what's occuring chemically. It first polymerizes, then dissociates, often explosively.

Dissolving in acetone prevents the polymerization that starts the reaction. But I've always wondered HOW THE HELL they keep that little bit of acetylene in the neck of the bottle and in the pipes up to the first stage of the regulator from undergoing the same reaction?

magic abounds....

LLoyd

Reply to
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh

Don,

Its no wonder acetylene is getting expensive. How much of a performance hit is using oxy-propane instead ?

Steve

Reply to
Steve Taylor

Sorry to be picking on details, but the chemistry teacher in me , can´t resist it. Acetylene has a tripple bond between the carbons, not a double bond. The tripple is what makes it so reactive. Each of those bonds are relatively weak and so prone to break. As for the O/A explosions, my chimistry teacher in high school did it with a glass beaker wrapped in a towel. One heck of a bang and the beaker was just dust. Henning

Don Bruder wrote in news:43ce9292$0$58090$ snipped-for-privacy@news.sonic.net:

Reply to
henning wright

Many years ago, a friend hooked a baggy to the overflow tube of a motorcycle battery while it was charging. The resulting filled baggy was ignited with a string/match time fuse. Similar results.

Bob

Reply to
Bob

My question also. Does propane require a different tip or torch? Can the same hoses be used for propane?

Bob

Reply to
Bob

How'd I end up with "double" in this post, when I know damn well it's a triple? At least I was consistent, I guess :)

(I *KNOW* that I've already posted that it's a triple bond in other messages in this thread, too... The mind is the first to go?)

Reply to
Don Bruder

whitelist,

"PopperAndShadow"

info

Wow, this is pretty interesting stuff. Obviously old hat to a lot of you guys, but it's new to me.

I am the type of guy that likes to experiment with stuff that I don't know very much about. While I don't have any plans to mess with my acetylene, it's possible this thread saved my wife a terrible mess to clean up. :)

Thanks for taking the time to explain things in such detail.

Reply to
Dave Lyon

Idunno about "old hat", but chemistry has always been one of my favorite areas of learning. Call me a well-educated amateur in the field - far from clueless, but in all honesty, likely just as far from expert.

Welcome to the "elephant's child" club. :)

(If you don't get the reference, see Rudyard Kipling's "Just So Stories", and the tale of how the elephant got his trunk.)

Uh, yeah, that's one fairly sane way to look at things

So where do I send the tuition bill? :)

Reply to
Don Bruder

I'll just stick it in the pile next to all my other bills. :)

Reply to
Dave Lyon

Well, at least it'll have company :)

Reply to
Don Bruder

Yes, same hoses and regulators with propane. Cutting torch will require a new tip. The tip is an entirely different design.

Propane seems to take longer heating and the cutting kerf will be wider as best as I can remember.

It will also use more oxygen.

Reply to
Dixon Ranch

Can be/is. See the rest of the thread. At 14.5 PSI or so, pure acetylene doesn't take much more than a "dirty look" to get a sufficiently large quantity of it to deflagrate. The same quantity at 15 pounds of pressure is all but guaranteed to do so before you even get a chance to apply the dirty look. What's INSIDE the cylinder is almost all dissolved in acetone soaked into one of several porous materials packed into the cylinder. (volcanic pumice is the packing material I'm most familiar with personally, although it's my understanding that many other things have been used over the years) There is very little free acetylene in the cylinder because pressure drives it into solution with the acetone, much the same way pressure forces the CO2 fizz back into soda, preventing it from reaching a density and quantity sufficient to start and support the deflagration sequence, allowing the cylinder and the tiny space in the regulator and valve to be safely taken to a hair over

250 PSI before further problems start to develop.

Correct.

Reply to
Don Bruder

Nearly right!

Acetylene is C2H2, O.K., but has a triple bond, containing LOTS of potential energy, which is released when the triple bond breaks.

ASCII art _ / \ HC---CH \_/

NO oxygen is needed, as you say.

Deflagration occurs when a decomposition reaction supplies enough heat to maintain or accelerate the decomposition which cannot escape fast enough to prevent the temperature of the system from increasing.

When I had my workshop fire, the fire brigade kept my acetylene cylinder cool by hosing it with water for 24 hours, to ensure that any acetylene decomposition reaction did not self-accelerate to deflagration. Thank goodness! MY house and our neighbours' houses were not destroyed! Evenn if some of the acetylene in the cylinder did decompose, the heat loss exceeded the rate of generation and deflagration was prevented.

Detonation occurs when the speed of propagation of the reaction through the substance or mixture exceeds the speed of sound in the unreacted material.

G.H.Ireland.

Reply to
Mr G H Ireland

Yep, AT LEAST twice as much.

Dont believe me, though... Do the math: Acetylene, C2H2, needs 2 oxygen atoms (2 bonding sites per atom) per carbon (four bonding sites per atom) for 4, plus 1 for every two hydrogen atoms (1 bonding site each) is 1, which makes 5 atoms of oxygen per molecule of Acetylene to burn neutral - Since oxygen comes "naturally packaged" in bundles of 2 atoms, that means we're going to need to mix two molecules of C2H2 with 5 molecules, or 10 atoms, of oxygen to achieve a "true neutral" flame - one that puts out nothing but heat, water, and carbon dioxide. A molecule of propane, C3H8, needs the same 2 per carbon for 6, and 1 for every 2 hydrogen for 4 makes 10 atoms or 5 molecules of oxygen to achieve the same result. All told, you'll go through oxy twice as fast with propane as with acetylene. Start cutting, or running an oxidizing flame, and you'll run through it even faster.

Of course, looking at it from the flip side, you're going to burn half as much propane as you would have acetylene for the same tank of oxy, but if I'm not mistaken, oxy-propane doesn't burn as hot as oxy-acetylene, so you have to use more of it to get the same heat (not sure on the BTU numbers - I'll have to look 'em up. I *KNOW* they differ, just not by how much) which makes me think you're likely going to be doing good if you pretty much break even when you get to the bottom line of the refilling bill. Another factor: How much does propane cost in *YOUR* area? Out here in Kali-fornicates-ya, the last refill of my little grille-tank - standard

5 gallon jobbie - set me back a fairly stiff-seeming 14-ish bucks.

D'OH! Proofreading the math just made me realize why/how I mangled the acetylene triple bond into a double bond in my other post!

Brain fart of epic proportions!

PROPER drawing of acetylene: _ / \ H-C---C-H = C2H2 = Acetylene \_/

^^^ = triple bond

NOT

H H \ / C=C = C2H4 = Ethylene, not Acetylene! / ^ \ H | H '- = double bond

as in polyethylene twine tying your hay bales, or ethylene glycol for the car radiator. Good grief... How did I overlook a screwup *THAT* big and basic!?!? And *YOU* missed it too, Teach!!! :) Guess that helps me not feel *QUITE* so bad... :)

Reply to
Don Bruder

I was interested primarily in the hazards involved in handling of my welding tanks.

Like deflagration? Sounds like a cool clueless newbie trick waiting for a chance to happen. Thanks for the clue...

I don't have a mean old-timer looking over my shoulder ready to swat me on the back of the head when (I didn't say if) I do stupid shop trick.

So it makes sense to read what I can and try to understand the "why" behind the "what".

Hey Don? So ok, the third bond is relatively weak and easily broken. But - I think I lost track of a couple of hydrogen atoms (in the text?)

Would you do a big favor on request from a clueless newbie?

Go back and edit that file over and post it again? With careful counts and the proper bond illustrations et al?

I'd like to save it and share with other clueless newbie.

It just might help me not blow myself up some day...

Thanks all,

Richard

Reply to
Richard Lamb

I don't bother if many are wrong. :-)

Do yourself a favour: Look at your acetylen bottle. Open it. Look at the primary pressure. It will be around 8bar (116psi). Still living? Now look at the scale of the primary pressure gauge. There will be a red line. It is a 18 bar (260 psi). Don't tell me, that the pressure regulator is filled with acetone. Even the bottle isn't filled completely with acetone. Only about 2/3 of the bottle are. That's because you are allowed to use them tiltet (as long as 30 deg (IIRC) out of the horizontal). Now this means, that the acetylen _has_ pressure of 116 psi inside the bottle and the first half of the pressure regulator.

Nonsense.

Almost! It doesn't matter how much is dissolved. There is free acetylen in the bottle with at least 116psi. Those 116psi depending on the temperature and thus of the dissolving ability of the acetone.

There is another reason why the ballons explode. I think it is UV-radiation.

Acetylen _is_ sensitive. No doubt about that.

Nick

Reply to
Nick Müller

The reason that acetylene does not explode at the high pressures in a bottle is because it is actually dissolved in acetone. As the gas is used the pressure in the bottle drops and more gas comes out of solution to replace it.

Tom

Reply to
Tom Miller

Reply to
carl mciver

Aye...

I noticed that screwup when I started doing the "chemical math" to figure out how much more O2 would be needed to run a torch on propane rather than acetylene. Somewhere further down the line in the thread, I posted nearly the same piece of corrected ASCII art. I think the initial screwup came from my drawing the molecule, thinking "that doesn't look right!", remembering that carbon has four valences to bond to, and then "correcting" my original artwork to match that fact, forgetting that I was drawing an acetylene molecule in the process. Sometimes the trees get in the way of the forest. Or is that the forest getting in the way of the trees? Either way, a definite "screwed the pooch" on my part.

Yep. On the money.

Reply to
Don Bruder

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