Loosing 17KW

Don't worry, it's so new that not many electricians are au fait with it either!, everyone's trying to get to grips with it as we speak, me included, and the C&G courses are over subscribed with people trying to make their operation legal again.

Back to the question, you need to be in one of the 10 government approved schemes:

and all have to meet minimum requirements which include a complaints procedure and the option of an insurance backed guarantee (see panel B in the above link), but within that framework each scheme can vary, the details can be found on their web sites, hence there is some consumer degree of choice in the matter.

The above link also makes it as clear as can be that if you do notifyable work yourself, or employ someone who is not registered, then it is up to you to inform building control. Thus it is you who will have to bear the cost of them sending an inspector, and you who will have to try to get that cowboy to put his work right if it fails, if he won't then you will have to pay someone to do it because the building control department will have issue an enforcement order on you not him.

It's a massive change and the public has not been properly informed, all they see is logos appearing on vans. Obviously all this is designed to wipe out the cowboys, it won't but should thin them down severely once the public is aware of the situation, which unfortunately won't happen until there are high profile cases in the press.

Incidentally, although this does not apply to industrial installation they too are being tightened up by the insurance companies who now insist on seeing certificates from qualified inspectors. There is a huge project not 5 minutes from here that has sent shock waves through the contracting industry in the last few months, the bean counters in a big corporation hired cowboys to do the installation in a £10M complex and when their insurers demanded the certificates (which the cowboys were not qualified to produce) they had to get an inspector in and he failed it on no fewer than 150 points!. Now as this place involves children and water the dangers are very real, and the bill to put it all right is going to be astronomical. That inspector was my tutor, so this is first hand.

I know I started with a joke about this being a nice earner for inspectors, and some of the old farts here seem to have ZERO sense of humour 8-), but it's a lot more than that and I do hope I've helped people who were not aware of their new obligations. I don't expect to make anything out of it because the only immediate reason for me getting qualified is so that, as a land lord, I can continue to renovate, maintain and certify my own properties, in fact I will be out of pocket in the short term. But it's literally been impossible to get an inspector to do my annual certificates for the last 6 months because there are so few with the required qualification that they are worked off their feet.

As to those who say it isn't true, or that it doesn't apply to them, well I hope they get clued up before it bites them on the bum!. The Home Sellers Pack becomes law in June 2007 and will require a Home Condition Report which includes the condition of the electrical installation. If that says a house needs rewiring because the cowboys have been in then you'll have problems selling, and the mortgage company is going to demand it's rewired. Anyone with an ounce of common sense is going to do things properly from now on otherwise they are just making it harder for themselves later on.

Greg

As I have already explained it's more than difficult, it's nigh impossible to get into competence scheme without.

And pay so much to the council for the privilege that it's totally uneconomic, even if you passed first time.

Ah but for how long, see my other post regarding insurance companies.

Actually it's more like £300-400 per anum, but that's once you get there and I've paid about £800 for the courses. The equipment is also hundreds, but if you're going to do work yourself and have confidence that it'll pass you must test it yourself, so will have to have the equipment, though you could borrow it.

Actually you could, though you'd be mad to without insurance because you could be wiped out financially if their insurance company sued you.

That's true in general, though there are certain circumstances when they are required by a statute so are statutory, generator installations are one such case that I know of as I work in that industry:

Actually there's no such clause as 120-05-01, chapter 12 ends at 120-02-01 and if you mean that clause please be aware that it's dinned into anyone doing the inspection and testing course that you should never, under any circumstances, use that 'loophole'. If you were ever to put departures on the certificate you must be able to justify yourself in court, and there are very few people who have sufficient competence to do so, certainly not someone who has only done C&Gs. Considering the regulation were updated less than 2 years ago it's also exceedingly unlikely that anyone could find "new materials and inventions" to use this clause anyway.

Isn't it odd that he won't tell us what loophole he is using so we can check up on it 8-)

Greg

[] []

Greg, are you saying that an old fart like me (bored, retired, 15th ed.) could just enjoy (yes I mean it) doing C&G and be certified as competent?

I might just do that. :)

There is no such law.

You don't necessarily have to have it inspected. Depends on what work you do, and on your local authority.

Legally you could. It's not like gas work (where you can do some gas work for yourself without being CORGI registered - but if you get paid you cannot do any work at all without registration).

However you might have to put in a planning notice, depending on exactly what work you did. Exactly the same as for your own house. Unlike gas, who it's for and whether you get paid don't matter for electrical work.

Nope - you have to comply with the regs.

Thing is, the regs you have to comply with are Building Regulations 2000 (as amended, including specifically by The Building (Amendment) (No.3) Regulations 2004).

You do not have to comply with the 16th edition.

In a Court you may have to show what you were doing was safe, and compliance with the 16th edition can help a lot here - but you do not have to explain why you didn't comply.

The building regs concern essentially three things: proper materials and workmanship, Regulation P, and building notices.

The proper materials and workmanship bit is quite broadly written, but fairly sensible, and not in question here - I assume everone would use proper materials, and their workmanship would be good.

Regulation P says two things - one, "Reasonable provision shall be made in the design, installation, inspection and testing of electrical installations in order to protect persons from fire or injury", and two, "Sufficent information shall be provided so that persons wishing to operate, maintain or alter an electrical installation can do so with reasonable safety".

ie, the work must not cause an unreasonable risk of fire and injury, and things should be labelled if that's necessary for safety.

That's all it says. It does not require registration. It does not require that the person doing the work be "competent". Strictly speaking it does not even require testing, though I wouldn't try that on in Court, it may be implicit.

(note, an "Approved Document" is not a law - you are not required to take any notice of it)

With a caveat about building notification for which see below, anyone can legally do any (otherwise legal) domestic electrical work.

You may also have to put in a building notice with your local authority, and your local authority may want to inspect the work. Maybe, maybe not, it depends - for instance, registered or not, you don't have to give notice to relace a switch, fit a new spur, fit a new light in an existing circuit, or rewire a house either partially or completely, your own or anyone else's. But you do have to give building notice if you want to fit a new ring circuit.

All this is not really about electrical safety BTW, except incidentally - it's about taxation, and especially council tax on attics, sheds etc. If you fit new electrical wiring in an attic it can be deemed as an extra room - and your council tax goes up. That's why new installations require notification, but replacement wiring does not.

Registered electricians are required to report this sort of new work even if notification is not needed. Like TV sellers are required to report the names and addresses of the people they sell TV's to.

Being registered can help with building notices - for instance, you can certify that the work is compliant, and you may not need to give prior notice to the local authority, but you can instead notify the registration authority afterwards (who them pass the information on to the local authorities) - but that's all registering does under the Building Regs.

Afaik (I could be wrong about this) local authorities are not at present actually required to inspect work, although they do have the power to require it. I know of one LA that doesn't seem to do any inspections where the workers have a reputation for competence (but aren't registered).

Long ago it used to be the power company tested new work if they didn't know you - but that's all gotten messed up now.

It's still a bollox though. It costs more than it saves.

Note, from the NCEIC Regulation P page

:

"According to Government statistics, each year on average 10 people die and about 750 are seriously injured in accidents involving unsafe electrical installations in the home."

And from the NCEIC "householder" page

:

"In fact, according to Government statistics, every year 5 deaths and over

500 injuries are caused by faulty electrical installations in the home. Added to this, 12,500 fires caused by electrical faults, resulting in 25 deaths and 590 injuries every year"

Mind, on the same "householder" page they say "The Government introduced a new law in January, which demands that most electrical work in UK households is only carried out by a ?competent' person." - which is incorrect, there is no such law. They also say that rewires and fitting a replacement consumer unit requires notification, and they are wrong about both of those too.

-- Peter Fairbrother

Not hearing anymore Just the shrieks from the old rich

True(ish) - but so what? Part P says it has to be safe and properly labelled, but that's all.

There is no specific inclusion as far as building notification goes, only for part P - and the normal exclusions apply.

So for installations in the buildings listed below you just have to do it safely and label things. Anyone can do the work. There is no need to notify anyone, no matter what work you are doing. It should not present an unreasonable risk of fire or injury, should be properly labelled, and should be done with proper materials and workmanship.

There are some other regs if you go significantly above 440 AC though ...

What law is that? I haven't heard of it. It ain't in the building regs.

-- Peter Fairbrother

The new moon is rising the axe of the thunder is broken as never was not since the flood nor yet since the world began

I've got better things to do than answer your half baked, ill-informed personal opinions which conveniently ignore those statutes that don't support your arguments, your conclusions are directly opposed to the opinion on he law that has been issued by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, is being taught to electricians and is being implemented by Council Building Regulatory Departments and can be found on their web site. People will have to make their own minds up, your view or the view of the people with the big stick of the law...

Greg

THANK FUCK FOR THAT

-- Regards,

John Stevenson Nottingham, England.

Visit the new Model Engineering adverts page at:-

"Jim Crowther"

ill-informed

don't

Very definate echos of our friend Gareth here I think Are you sure you don't have an interest in Amateur Radio ? Do you have a tendancy to say things like 'stupid boy' randomly at the slightest provocation?

Anything issued by 'right hook Prescott' has to be viewed with caution I feel.

AWEM

Well you're obviously only interested in fabricating arguments so why should I bother? I've already posted links to the ODPM's site where the facts are explained in terms anyone can understand, but not you apparently!. The site, and the sites of the various schemes, go into all the detail you need to understand the situation but apparently you know better...

You're not an electrician by any chance are you?, one of those who think it doesn't apply to them and it's business as usual?, there were plenty of them around until a few months ago when it finally dawned on most of them that they had to either get qualified, get out of the industry or try to get a job with a big contractor who was approved and was willing to take the responsibility of supervising and inspecting their work.

Greg

I have never been interested in Ham radio, claiming that someone has an alter ego is a pretty old usenet trick when you disagree with someone.

Maybe so, but the fact is the government has made laws which are going to affect a sea change on the industry, and if you don't like that then take a look at the sellers pack laws to come in next year, now there is a can of worms...

Greg

message

someone.

and I forgot to mention that most of those contractors are putting their staff through C&G 2381 because their insurers are driving the issue, the courses are literally over booked every time.

Greg

message

someone.

Now where were we - oh yes - loosing 17KW of heat in a water cooling system intermittantly 20 times a year in half hour sessions - I'd almost forgotten

AWEM

I can't see how this links in with industry in general, where most of these 'qualified' folks work.

If you are the design authority for, say, equipment working at 11kV AC or 750V DC, as we are, what you are saying is that we cannot be classed as competent at

240V domestic stuff, which seems to be a little at odds with the general rules of engagement.

Peter

-- Peter & Rita Forbes Email: snipped-for-privacy@easynet.co.uk Web:

Yes that's exactly what the GOVERNMENT is saying, please don't shoot the messenger!

If you want to argue that one try the IEE forums where lots of highly qualified IEE members are fuming that they can no longer work on their own house and resigning in droves!. As very few electricians are joining the IEE's competence scheme they seem to have shot themselves in the foot by supporting the changes in their present form, many argued that it should be done differently but the IEE has never been renowned for listening 8-).

I think the fact that you ask this just shows that there has been totally inadequate publicity given to the changes.

Greg

Send it up here, it's bloody freezing in my workshop :-)

And yet another classic way to try and discredit someone in Usenet, blaming them for a thread going off topic when in fact there's hardly a single thread that doesn't go off topic, this one also got into nuclear power stations!. Now let me see, what's left, calling me a troll maybe?, or that old classic top v bottom posting, go for it 8-)

Greg