Skeleton model

Maybe its your license.

I believe you have to, as Zeta mentioned, have one of the assembly extensions to use a true .skel part. You can emulate the same functionality (associative external references) using copy geometry functions that are available in the foundation package. I've read a couple of good articles on why going this route is preferable to using .skel parts, but cannot remember where they were. Maybe someone else can elaborate a bit more. I'm relatively new to Pro/E and probably going about things the hard way so I'll be watching for some tips, as well, rather than try to elaborate on the subject myself.
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I just used a skeleton model for the first time. What they are really good for is that they do not appear in BOMs and do not effect the assembly in an unhealthy way. Basically, you use the skeleton as a reference for all the parts you are designing so that they are all coordinated in size, position, clearances etc. I have tried the copy geometry function a few times (pre-Wildfire ... so I don't know if it is improved) and it stinks. You will have to do a little research but I think that there is no associativity when you do this.
Alternatively, you can use datum planes and curves which you create as the first features in your assembly (or as a separate reference part). This method works well but can get confusing since these features are usually one dimensional in nature. If you work at it I am sure you can simulate 3 dimensional curves somehow (I have done this by creating segments that are flat and linking them together).
Another alternative is to build all of your parts in an assembly and they will all have dependencies on one another. This works but creates weird problems. For example:
Your assembly consists of 3 parts assembled in the following order 1, 2, 3. Within these parts there is a relationship between feature 3 of part 3 to feature 27 of part 1. When you change feature 2 of part 3 (which is a parent of feature 27 in part 1) feature 3 of part 3 fails for no apparent reason. Much cursing follows (the FCC will not allow me to use the words that I would actually use in this instance so I will use a tried and true simulation stolen from "Peanuts" comic strips) AAAAGH##$$&@@@!!!
How can this be when the part is further down the assembly tree? Simple the parent child relationship does not work like the simple linear tree we all know and love in individual parts. And the real treat is that if you want to alter just one part you have to have all the parts available to debug any problems you might run into. With a skeleton model you only change the skeleton and everything else follows (actually, this is rare because you usually forget something and ... you'll see the same problem from the previous paragraph).
Here is something you might try (I haven't experimented with this myself bit it should work): 1. Create a single "master" part with all the important building blocks as solids (for example: to make an interface between two parts create a thin feature equal to the clearance required with holes in it for the fasteners location). 2. When this part is complete and you are satisfied with it save it as an IGES wireframe. 3. Make this wireframe (not the part) the first part of your assembly and reference everything off of it while building the parts in assembly mode. The disadvantage is that it isn't really parametric but oh what fun you will have.
If you can afford it I highly recommend getting the extensions that will allow you to use the skeleton method. I believe that it can be bundled with other useful things like surfacing (wonderful if it isn't abused), pro-notebook (used with skeletons this is an even better method) and sheetmetal for a "reasonable" price.

Instead of a straight copygeom into your assembly, put them into a MAP part. This way they are off to the side of the assembly structure and can be suppressed without hurting the rest of the assembly.

I certainly can't argue against the use of strict skeleton (*.skel) parts if one has the (whatever it is) module that enables the functionality, nor purchasing the module, though Wildfire Foundation Advantage already has sheet metal and surfacing, so the bundling idea doesn't offer much.
You can, however, achieve much of the intent of skeleton parts; e.g. drive an assembly, part geometry and assembly relationships by way of "master" parts in a manner that is associative and robust. Do Not Use an iges wireframe import. Create a master part with datum features, sketches, what-have-you, defining key features of the assembly and parts. Create an assembly. Place the master in it, or not, depending on preference (it's presence has never bothered me). Create a new part in the assy; Creation Method = Empty. Activate the part. Insert > Shared data > Merge from Other Model > ..... At the end of the process you have an associative link to the geometry in the master part. There is a document on PTC's site; "Suggested Technique for Copying Geometric and Datum References" that describes the process. Personally, I've never been a big fan of strictly skeleton driven assemblies, so I usually just place the master part in the assembly and reference it for various purposes as seems appropriate.
I don't know how what's available in Foundation compares to the use of *.skel parts, feature for feature, but it does fulfill my needs pretty well. If I am missing some cool functionality, I'm eager to hear about it.
Perhaps my use of "copy geometry" was misleading. The intended meaning was in a general sense and sticking to "externally referenced geometry" would have been better.
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"Kev> I just used a skeleton model ................

I must bow to a more experienced user in this arena.
However, there is one detail that must be mentioned and that is if you are using any type of PDM software the master part method usually causes it to freak. If you are not using a PDM system but your customer is (and you want to exchange data) do a test first to make sure everything works before spending too much time on this method. (I know of this unfortunate problem due to personal experience with a subcontractor that used a master model ... Intralink, my PDM software, doesn't handle the situation properly and if I want to maintain this particular part ... well I haven't figured out how yet and it's been three years and quite a few PTC phone calls since.)

Good point. I'm totally clueless there and you've probably saved me some future heartache. Thank you.
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"bellsouth" wrote...

Copy Geom functionality is not available in the Foundation package with the 'Pro Assembly Performance' option. It is only available with the Advanced Assembly option.
If you have copy geom functionality with the foundation package only, I would like to hear about it. We had this functionality thru v2001 until Wildfire. Then we lost it. From other comments on the NG people are being told that having this functionality without Advanced Assembly is a 'mistake'
We also lost Skeleton models, and Interchange Groups.
Jeff Howard wrote:

Apparently, my use of the words "using copy geometry functions" was a bad choice and can only offer ignorance of the tools and workflow used in previous versions (and I may not be using efficient workflow in Wildfire, either) as an excuse.
I guess, given the above, I don't know if I have "copy goem functionality", but Wildfire does have the ability to create associative copies of externally referenced geometry without the advanced assembly extension. (Not meant as a defense of what PTC does or does not include in the current "foundation" package. It simply originated as a possible way for Andrea to get around not having AAX and the ability to create true skeleton models.) =================================

Chris, I have Foundation Advantage which as far as I know is PTC's bare-bones starting package these days. I purchased it in the last days of R2001 as Foundation II. 'Pro Assembly Performance' option is part of it, and so, of course, is the Copy Geometry functionality. I might be wrong, but to my best knowledge this is the 'lowest end' Pro/E package one can buy these days. Based on that, you might be able to get your license upgraded to Foundation Advantage if not free, than for a nominal charge. What I do not understand is how you lost this option with Wildfire: if you had it, you must have had a package that at least corresponded to current Foundation Advantage, if not exceeded it. You might want to review your old package (the list of modules in your old license files) and compare it to Foundation Advantage. It might very well be that PTC has 'downgraded' your license either because some rep was out to make a commission on 'new' sales or through sheer incompetence. You might have a case you can argue with them.

Thank you for replying.
I also have the 'Pro ASSEMBLY_PERFORMANCE' option listed under 'Help | Technical Support Info', but do not have the following:
Publish Geometry, Copy Geometry, Shrinkwrap, or Inheritance in part mode, and Simplified Reps and Interchange Groups in Assembly Mode.
We had all of these options in Pro v2001 build 2002310, but lost them in WF build 2003370
We are told by our local PTC rep that these options need AAX.
If they do not, or you have these options without AAX, I would like this ammo to use on our friendly PTC rep.
Also, I have looked without success, but is there a spot on the PTC web site that explicitly states which options are included in each of the packages, and what features/capabilities are included in each option?
Alex Sh. wrote:

is there a spot on the PTC web : site that explicitly states which options are included in each of the : packages, and what features/capabilities are included in each option? : snipped-for-privacy@kapco-tool.com began a thread on 3/18 on the topic of what's included in different license packages. I replied with a link to the PTC website where they give their spiel on Foundation Advantage and what's included. The interesting thing to me, though, is that they talk in general terms about functionality, but never mention modules. They never say, as does your license, that this package includes..... followed by a list of modules. They keep it deliberately a big mystery so they, or their sales reps, can play with it, goose it, stroke it, milk it for all it's worth, and occasionally, reward the worthy with some bonus, 'free' addons. Keeps you hooked up to the VARs and sales reps. Hmmm.... what is that I smell? Oh, yeah, just more stinking scams. OOppps, I guess I've screwed my chances of getting that Strategic Account Rep in Santa Clara, California.
David Janes

Don't know if this helps any ....
Shrinkwrap in part mode: Save Copy As and scroll a couple pages down the Type menu to Shrinkwrap.
Shrinkwraps can be created in assembly mode as part of an envelope (Tools > Model Sectioning). The envelope can be used in a simp rep (View Manager).
Sorry if I'm stating the obvious. I'm not quite sure if the issue is a lack of functionality, diminished functionality or having to use different methods / menu picks, etc.
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Chris, here is what my Foundation Advantage license file lists:
#PROE_3085046 1 Pro/ENGINEER Foundation Advantage (Found Wildfire Lic 01-jan-0 2A225707
#-------------------------------------------------------------------------- #START: License File for HOST ID ??-??-??-??-??-?? #--------------------------------------------------------------------------
#################### LOCKED License ##################### # Serviceable = Mechanism Design # Serviceable = Pro/ENGINEER Foundation Advantage (Foundation II Wildfire Upgrade) # Feature Name = PROE_3085046 # Feature Version = 24.0 # Number of Copies = 0 (0 indicates locked licenses or modules) # Expiration Date = 01-jan-0 (this license does not expire) # Optional Modules = Pro/INTERFACE for CATIA # Optional Modules = Pro/FEATURE # Optional Modules = Pro/DETAIL # Optional Modules = Pro/INTERFACE # Optional Modules = WLO # Optional Modules = Pro/SURFACE # Optional Modules = Pro/PLOT # Optional Modules = Pro/LIBRARYACCESS # Optional Modules = Pro/ECAD # Optional Modules = Pro/REPORT # Optional Modules = Pro/CDT # Optional Modules = Pro/DATA for PDGS # Optional Modules = Pro/LEGACY # Optional Modules = Pro/INTERFACE for STEP # Optional Modules = Pro/WELDING # Optional Modules = Pro/PHOTORENDER # Optional Modules = Pro/WEB PUBLISH (> OR = 18.0) # Optional Modules = Pro/SHEETMETAL-DESIGN # Optional Modules = Pro/INTERFACE for CADDS 5 # Optional Modules = Mechanism Design License # Optional Modules = 4DNavigator License # Optional Modules = Import Data Doctor # Optional Modules = Design Animation # Optional Modules = ModelCHECK License # Optional Modules = Pro/ASSY_PERFORMANCE
Now, I've never used Copy Geom or Shrinkwraps in R2001 or earlier, so I don't exactly know what their full functionality is supposed to be. But I have used Shrinkwrap a couple of times in Wildfire with this license (In Assembly mode, 'File', 'Save A Copy', then select the Shrinkwrap from the pulldown list of available file types). I have also used Copy Geom, which is now under 'Insert', 'Shared Data', 'Copy Geometry from Other Model...'. So most certainly one does not need an AAX for at least these two features. I have checked on the PTC website and the Foundation Advantage is THE most basic (read: bare-bones) Pro/E license available these days. It was also a standard license PTC gave to former owners of Foundation II in the days of R2001. What does your license file say, Chris? If the modules I've listed are in it, Shrinkwrap and Copy Geom should be available to you. Are the menu picks I've listed simply not there or greyed out?

Thanks for the info,
I can make shrinkwrap, and assembly envelopes in WF
Jeff Howard wrote:

This is the contents of my support.inf report: (***=sensitive data) FILE: support.inf.1 TIME: 15-Apr-04 08:17:40
================================================== License Information ==================================================
Service Contract Number: ****** Release: Wildfire Pro/ENGINEER Date Code: 2003370 License Name: PROE_******* License Version: 24.0 License Type: Commercial version, Floating License Server Name: *******
License file search path: ****@*******
================================================== Configured Option Modules ==================================================
The following Pro/ENGINEER options are installed: (Note: license extensions are marked with a '*')
Design_Animation Pro/DATA_for_PDGS Pro/LIBRARYACCESS Import_Data_Doctor Pro/DETAIL Pro/PHOTORENDER Interactive_Surface_Design Pro/ECAD Pro/PLOT
Mechanism_Design Pro/FEATURE Pro/REPORT ModelCHECK Pro/INTERFACE Pro/SCAN_TOOLS Pro/4DNavigator Pro/INTF-CADDS5 Pro/SHEETMTL-DES Pro/ASSY_PERFORMANCE Pro/INTF-for-CAT Pro/SURFACE Pro/CDT Pro/INTF_for_STEP Pro/WELDING Pro/COMPOSITE Pro/LEGACY Pro/Web.Publish
================================================== Machine Information ==================================================
Host Name: ******* User Name: ******* Host ID: **-**-**-**-**-**
Pro/ENGINEER Machine Type: I486_NT Pro/ENGINEER Graphics Type: OPENGL
OS Name: Windows NT OS Release: 5.0 OS Version: 2195 Hardware Type: x86 Family 15 Model 2 Stepping 7 GenuineIntel 1993 MHz
================================================== Installation Directories and Command Information ==================================================
Directories:
Pro/ENGINEER Installation Directory: C:\ptc\proeWildfire\ Pro/ENGINEER Startup Directory: u:\pro24\ Pro/APPLICATION MANAGER Directory: Not Available Pro/INTRALINK Directory: Not Available Commands:
Pro/ENGINEER Start-up Command: C:\ptc\proeWildfire\bin\proe.exe ================================================== Configuration Information ==================================================
Configuration files read:
\\*******\users\*******\config.pro u:\pro24\config.pro u:\pro24\config.win.1 C:\ptc\proeWildfire\text\menu_def.pro
Pro/HELP Search Path: C:\ptc\proeWildfire~w: ================================================== Auxiliary application Information ==================================================
No auxiliary applications loaded.
CONTACTING TECHNICAL SUPPORT
For information on contacting PTC Technical Support, please refer to the printed Customer Service Guide or the on-line edition at:
(Click "Contacting Technical Support")
The shrinkwrap functionality I found under save a copy...
but the others: Insert|Shared Data| Publish Geometry... Copy geometry from other model... Shrinkwrap from other model... Inheritance from other model... are greyed out.
And again, I had all of these features in pro v2001, but lost them in WF, and are told I need AAX to get them back.
BTW, we are very long users of pro-e going back to v9?, I think. And yes we got (choose your best expletive) in the change from individual feature sets to new 'packages'.
My main need is copy geom. I do lots of die and mold work, and copy geom avoided all of the nastiness with matching accuracies that exists with merge/cutout. Making sure all of the references update properly is still a nightmare without some type of PDM though...
Thanks for your response
Alex Sh. wrote:

Chris, I took the liberty and pasted our license files side-by-side. Here is what I came up with. The lines of plain text are the lines taken from your license; the lines beginning with > # are the lines from mine.
Here goes:
Design_Animation Pro/DATA_for_PDGS Pro/LIBRARYACCESS Import_Data_Doctor Pro/DETAIL Pro/PHOTORENDER Interactive_Surface_Design
Pro/ECAD Pro/PLOT Mechanism_Design Pro/FEATURE Pro/REPORT ModelCHECK Pro/INTERFACE Pro/SCAN_TOOLS
Pro/4DNavigator Pro/INTF-CADDS5 Pro/SHEETMTL-DES Pro/ASSY_PERFORMANCE Pro/INTF-for-CAT Pro/SURFACE Pro/CDT Pro/INTF_for_STEP Pro/WELDING Pro/COMPOSITE
Pro/LEGACY Pro/Web.Publish As you can see, you have more modules than I. My license does not include Interactive Surface Design, Pro/Scan Tools, and Pro/Composite modules. One module that I have and you don't is WLO. I have no idea what it is; hopefully, somebody on this ng will be able to explain this abbreviation. As I have said in my earlier post, my license is a Foundation Advantage, the most basic license of Pro/E currently available. It most certainly does NOT include AAX, but Copy Geometry and other picks that are greyed out in your Wildfire under 'Insert', 'Shared Data', are all working in mine. And since my license is not a result of an upgrade from a group of modules separately purchased previously, but a STANDARD node-locked Pro/E Foundation Advantage license, you can be sure that EVERY user who has Foundation Advantage has a license that looks like mine and gives the same functionality. So whoever is telling you that you need AAX for the stuff you are missing is either lying or doesn't know what they are talking about. Hope this helps in your negotiations with your rep.

Alex, can you elaborate a bit?
I'm using WF date code 2003210, commercial, floating. It appears that I have the same modules that your license lists with the exception of the "WLO".
I don't think I've ever seen the following (but not limited to) Insert > Shared Data > menu items active: Copy Geometry.... Publish Geometry... Inheritance...
Perhaps, to avoid confusion, just the "Copy Geometry..." should be considered, as I don't even know what Publish or Inheritance are. I can copy various geometry using different methods, but have never seen the menu pick active. Is it possible that I'm just not getting in the right mode with the right entities selected? Or are you referring to other menu picks?
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