Alpha Hybrids

I think I'll weigh in on this thread.

First of all, thanks to the guys who've jumped in to defend me/Sky Ripper. While they don't officially talk for me, I appreciate their loyal friendship and their willingness to help a friend. Thanks guys.

In regards to my 54mm certification, I will take the blame where I can, but to be sure the fault of the delay isn't entirely or even mostly or half mine. Below I will outline the story to the very best of my memory.

Let me start out my story by saying that I find Paul Holmes a completely fair, honest, and likable fellow. It has been my pleasure to work with Paul for the complete duration of our certification efforts. Being that I am a guy who has a job much like Paul's in terms of travel, I understand how hard it is to live up to commitments while being away from home all week. Paul has only so much time per week that he can commit to testing, and every moment he spends testing, is a moment he spends away from home - a place where his presence in rare to begin with. I think we all owe him some thanks for the job he has done in the past. Thank you, Paul - motor testing is a thankless job, the hours stink, and the pay is... well..... You know. ;)

Now, on to my 54mm story.

Woody took primary control of the motor hardware manufacturing for the

54mm product, and he completed the first run of components for delivery to TMT in mid March, 2006. I can't remember the exact date, but I do remember that he was scrambling to leave for a meeting in LA when he was getting the shipment together, and that meeting was in March.

Slightly after that or at about the exact same time, I had completed the injection mold for the 54mm fuel grains. The injection mold was for sure the most expensive and time consuming part of the 54mm project, so when it was complete, I got some sample parts made, did a few preliminary tests, and sent reload kits to Paul. Apparently, my 'prelim' tests were not enough.

I had done all the development of the 54mm product using machined ABS grains, in *mostly* the same configuration as I would later be molding. However, due to a normal manufacturing flaw that occurs in most injection molded parts, a pin hole in the grain could be opened up under some operating conditions. Despite the earlier tests, I only found this pin hole a day before Paul did his first official test. I sent him an email asking him to hold off the tests until I could replace his defective grains, but unfortunately Paul didn't get the message until after he did his first testing, and experienced the pin hole issue for himself. I got the message about the failed test on Easter day, 2006.

I repaired the issue with the mold by the following weekend, manufactured new grains, and sent them to Paul. Paul received the updated reload kits before the end of April, for tests he had scheduled. Note that this was the last time that an 'issue' with our motors held up a testing; The end of April, 2006.

Paul tested a few more times, but noted that his numbers had come up quite different than the numbers we had sent him. To us, this wasn't odd - all of the 29 and 38mm motors we had sent to TMT for testing had been about 20% off in total impulse from our tests. We had always assumed that this was due to the fact that in our testing climate, N20 temps of 60 degrees is common, and in Paul's climate, N20 temperatures of 90+ degrees are common. It's easy to understand just on the basis of N20 density alone why the numbers would be that far off. TMT has no testing manual, let alone any criteria for nominal hybrid testing temperature - something that I believe is infinitely important when it comes to testing hybrids.

Paul and I talked on the telephone in May (from memory), and he explained that it would be a good idea to get CAR involved in testing. The temperatures in Arizona were too hot for him to be able to test the motors at a nominal temperature, and that lower temps would be easily attained in Canada. He shipped hardware and some reloads to CAR after they confirmed that they would be willing to help with the certification efforts. Unfortunately, because the reloads were going to Canada, our approved and tested pyrotechnic ignition components could not make the trip. I wrote specific instructions to the CAR people on what was required for the preheater.

I got confirmation that CAR had received product from Paul in June, and they quickly performed the first test within a week of receiving the shipment. They had, confusingly at first, gotten results that were very close to what Paul had tested. When I inquired about the specifics of the test, I had learned that they had heated the N20 up to

850psi in a bath of warm water, in order to more closely match the results Paul was getting in the desert. Of course, this was an indication that there was some kind of miscommunication as to what the CAR tests were being performed to prove. I then wrote an email to the CAR testing chairman, asking that the next test be performed at 700psi. They agreed that this would be their course of action.

Early in July, I got a reply from CAR stating that they had experienced a catastrophic disassembly failure of our hardware during a test. I was shocked to hear this news. As I began an email review of the cato, I discovered that the instructions I had given for preheater construction/implementation were not followed. It was clear that this was the cause of the cato, and it was no fault of the motor design. CAR agreed with my assessment of the failure point, and agreed to do some more testing with correct preheaters, provided I could supply them with another complete motor and 2 or more reload kits, which I did. I boxed up my personal 54mm hardware and two new reloads without pyro elements as soon as I possibly could, and sent them up to Canada. I received communication from CAR that the box containing the motor was received, but that no testing could be completed until the testing agent had returned from a 3 week long trip he was to be taking. As it turns out, this was the last I had heard from CAR. No further testing has been done, and I've not had hardware returned to me.

After about six weeks, I contacted Paul and asked him if he had any information regarding the CAR tests, and he replied that he had assumed that I was dealing directly with CAR when it came to the tests they were doing. I then told Paul that I hadn't heard from them since the acknowledgment of the shipment, and he sent an email to CAR requesting return of unused testing materials. He then told me that TMT would be in a position to resume testing again when the temperatures cooled a bit more in the desert.

In October, I got an email from Paul telling me that he had one last chance to test before he moved to Texas to start a new position with his company. From what I recall, the email from Paul came in on a Wednesday, requesting new reloads for testing one week from the upcoming Saturday. Since the 54mm reloads aren't a 'production' product, and I had assumed that I had already supplied enough reloads to TMT and CAR to perform the tests, I didn't have enough extra 54mm grains in my possession to fill his request.

So scrambling, I scheduled a production run of the 54mm grain mold as early as I could on Sunday, and had a box ready for shipment on Monday morning - an amazing feat considering the cost and availability of injection molding machines - particularly on the weekends. Using our standard shipping scheme, this would enable enough time to get the box to Paul for his tests.

Now, in retrospect, I do remember the email that came in during the middle of summer telling all manufacturers of Paul's change of address. However, since I don't have access to my outlook on the weekends, and I had already assumed that I had sent everything to Paul that I would need to send, I didn't act at all on his email when it was received. This was a poor decision, I'll admit. But, it must be understood that when I was filling Paul's request for more reloads, I was in absolute scramble mode, and the last thing I thought about was weather or not the only address I had ever used in correspondence with Paul was still valid - The fact that he had sent the change of address email had totally slipped my mind.

On Wednesday of that week, after the Monday shipment had been made, I got an email from Paul asking "Say - did you remember to send the reloads to my new address?"...Which of course, I did not. It seems Paul understood enough to think it reasonable that I might have shipped to the wrong address to comment on it. The reloads arrived mid way through the following week, several days after the testing session.

I have since received communication from Paul that there might be a new testing location near his new home in Texas that might be perfect for TMT, and that tests might be able to be performed in early 07.

That is the story, to the best of my honest recollection. I did not tell this story to trash Paul, because I believe Paul has done a job to the absolute best of his abilities, and again - I thank him for doing a completely thankless job.

However, if anyone can read the above and suggest that this is acceptable for a testing agency who a manufacturer is REQUIRED to utilize before selling their product, their sanity must be questioned.

The system is broken. It may be on its way to being fixed but for now, it is broken, and it being broke has darn near cost Woody and I everything we've ever worked for in Sky Ripper Systems.

Every penny we have made is now invested in a 54mm product that has sit on the shelf for 8 months at least, waiting for a resolution outside of our control. We are, at this point, bankrupt. There is no money in the account for us to pay for the manufacture of even 29 and 38mm hardware.

Both Woody and I are hoping that the new link Paul has in Texas will lead to a fair and consistent testing schedule, so that no one else has to face the loss of their business due to the inability of getting their products tested.

Thanks for reading.

I hope you all have a rewarding and joyous holiday season!

Todd Moore Sky Ripper Systems.

jsdemar wrote:

It's not what ya know it's who ya blow!!!

right Tom???

Also try having some tack as far as keeping your yip shut about anything you hear about other manufactures test results! Haven't you freakin figured it out yet! .. If TMT is telling you anything about of manufactures test results, alleged problems thats very poor taste on there part.

" I don't have time to look it up" more BS on your part, man your a freakin idiot..

Go away you annoying puke!

Sorry to hear about the grief Ed, I've been through my share..

Now if we could get one no mind to STFU the world would be a better place.. :o)

Cheer's Scott ...

Thanks for the clarity.....yes it's broken, what you've endured is assinine, hopefully they know how to make ice in Texas and 'burn bans' don't become a recurring excuse. If so a new site has to be used for hybrids, or professional testing must be paid for. Your honesty is to be commended, we've had our fill of bluster and blowhards in this 'deny everything' society.

Thanks man!

Chuck

I also appreciate Todd's honesty in admitting that TMT is not the entire cause of the problem. It seems liek there is enough blame to go around but I don't thinkn it is necessary to pass the blame. Everyone has the common interest of having the system work as best it can.

If professional testing is done, the manufacturers will pay for it and pass it on to the users. That will price some manufacturers out of the market - especially the smaller ones.

Phil

Let me say that I believe that TMT takes, in an overwhelming way, the largest share of the blame for the delay.

If that did not come through in my message, then I wasn't clear enough.

TMT had no problems certifying dozens of other motors during the same time frame when mine weren't being certified.

I have hopes that the new arrangement that Paul is working out will fix the problems that I have had, and make sure things like this don't happen in the future.

Todd Moore

How much does it cost to certify a single motor with the TRA?

Forwarded to TMT chair.

If you have any evidence, I'll be happy to forward it to firemarshalls.

It Varies by Size. I would have to double check but I know it is 25 Dollars and 30 Dollars.

I can't remember what the 25 Dollars is for and what the 30 Dollars is for, but I think 30 is for smaller motors (up to M) and 30 dollars is for M and Above.

Not to much if you ask me. The Manufacture provides TMT with Hardware, Reloads and if there are any added expenses they cover those (Nitrous for Example).

Tom

How much does it cost NOT to get it certed after months?

Chuck

Depends on how much your business was worth before it went under.

What? You are kidding? Paul spent more than that in gas driving out to the range.

I was expecting at least $100/hr, several grand per motor and wasn't going to be surprised at $5,000.

Thanks for the insight.

I don't set the pricing, I just follow it.

However, I'll let you know that I don't think Paul cares too much about the motor testing fees, as I've yet to receive a bill for the 29mm motors he tested back two years ago, despite asking for one at least 2 times. Again, Paul is busy, and the total bill was only ~100 bucks+ 25 dollars (guessing?) for N20.

I'd be all for a 100+ dollar per motor testing fee, if it meant that the testing would be taken care of commiserate in value with such a fee.

Todd Moore

And what manufacturer would be able to pay that cost? It sure would cut the competition down, that's for sure! ;)

I'm all for paying more in testing fees, and actually making TMT a for-hire part time paid position. 100 dollars per motor type, maybe a premium for hybrids, would be a fair amount, I think. It wouldn't be rare to be able to do 4 motor types in a day.

But, what do I know? I'm just a guy who thought it would be cool to sell some hybrid motors ;)