DIY cruise missile thwarted



9/11/01 attacks happened because we had an outdated policy of apeasement of hijakers on the FALSE ASSUMPTION that ALL hijakers wanted to take a plane to some other country and land. There was NO provision for suicide in policy (pilots and crew were compelled by law with severe penalties to conform to) whether or not Israel had implemented anti-terrorism policy (no appeasement) and SCREAMED at us for nearly a decade to do the same.
Furthermore we did not simply lock the doors (see above Israeli screaming probably interpreted as whining).
We screwed ourselves.
But did we leave open the opportunity for people to save themselves? Nope. 3 of the 4 planes went down in a fireball with their tail between their legs having been fully disarmed before arriving on-board so the citizens (of their own country) were precluded from acting in response by the very same government the constitution is written to protect us from. It is failing to do so.
The one plane that did fight back, did so by violating every rule in the book and finding and USING weapons. They are criminals not heros. They broke the law big time!
At least if you properly follow the silly, sick, sad, illegal laws that were on the books at the time of the incident.
Jerry
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Bruce Simpson wrote: << So you're one of those who believe the "security by obscurity" myth >>
Not entirely. It may be that terrorist would think up stuff like this on their own, eventually. I just don't see any reason to help them think of it sooner instead of later (or possibly not at all). To use the example of 9/11, terrorists have had the capability of using hijacked planes as weapons for decades. Yet they obviously didn't think of it until recently.
<< If you don't educate the pubilc as to the risks, how can they possibly be perpared or vigilant? >>
What exactly do you expect the public to do about it?
<< The very point I'm trying to make is that trying to restrict access to the materials is futile. >>
On that we agree. Unfortunately, governments rarely think that way. The government reaction is almost always to restrict _things_ (and thus reducing freedom of innocent citizens), because they know it's useless to restrict criminal actions.
<< So I guess you've got *big* problems with the Homeland Security laws eh? >>
Some of it, yes.
<<A balance has to be struck between preserving the safety of a nation and preserving the rights of its people. I think the balance is presently not well struck. >>
I agree. Unfortunately I think you're playing right into the hands of the people who use fear and paranoia to restrict our freedom in the name of "fighting terrorism".
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RayDunakin wrote:

that's right, Ray. What's the point of reflecting on our preparedness, or lack thereof. Since you think 'resistance is futile', we may as well sustain the illusion until the last possible moment, before we are completely overtaken.
- iz
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Iz wrote: << that's right, Ray. What's the point of reflecting on our preparedness, or lack thereof. Since you think 'resistance is futile', we may as well sustain the illusion until the last possible moment, before we are completely overtaken. >>
???? I have no idea what you're talking about.
I asked the man what he expects the public to do about one potential threat. I haven't seen him proposing a defense against that threat. He _is_ stirring up a lot of paranoia about it, but we all know how the government responds to that: More restrictions on freedom.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote:

The one feature of the media and especially the government leaders following 9/11/01 was they would get on the media and state with particularity what things they feared terrorists would do, then said (again very publicly), gee I wish we had the funding to abate that, but we don't.
Well they got the funding and they STILL didn't abate it. But they are still on TV with the same crap of educating potential terrorists of precisely what to do. I predict they will get yet more money, not abate a thing, and repeat it all again.
Mean time I have a heretical question. Where are these domestic terrorists we are protecting ourselves from?
And since the vast bulk of the monies are being used for paying salaries of lots of police at about 15 levels of juristiction. Most of their time is spent justifying their existence, not by finding terrorists. No that is hard. They find and arrest U.S. citizens for "petty crimes" which used to be called infractions but now have been felonized as a means to keep us "safe". I guess the safest citizen is one who is safely tucked away in a jail cell. And made a part of the system on release by being a felon.
Besides the obvious civil rights implications of criminalizing almost all of daily activity, what about the loss of business productivity, or the least factored in element, the loss of life experience and simple freedom to live.
And there is nowhere one can go in the United States to be somewhat free of the risk of being randomly criminalized. With overlapping juristictions even the most remote and technically disconnected citizen is under the thumb of at least 5 levels of police. England by comparison has ONE.
And since now using any form of transportation subjects you to random search and proof of identification, and in most cases financial responsibility, the poor are filling the jails with increasing rapidity indeed.
And once tagged as a criminal, you are treated as one by default for the rest of your life, whether or not you have committed a crime. And police routinely falsify probable cause that a crime has been committed and almost as commonly fabricate evidence of the crime itself. There is a "practical" presumption of guilt in the "justice system" and even a moderately effective defense is horifficly expensive and inaccessable to ALL but a tiny fraction of accused "criminals".
Jerry

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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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On 14 Dec 2003 03:36:47 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote:

So clearly, not issuing advisories to the pubilc that airliners could be used in this way didn't work as a method of preventing such attacks. My point exactly.
If the public *had* been warned of the magnitude of this threat they may have forced the airlines and authorites to ramp up their security measures *before* the events of 9/11. That may have saved lives.
So what's wrong with learing from that mistake and realising that "security by obscurity" is indeed nothing but a myth?

I've explained that on my website -- but basically they simply have to be vigilant. If you see a pickup truck with what looks like an almost-covered missile on the back -- don't assume it's just a movie prop. Report it and get it checked out.
If your new neighbor is seen carting sheets of stainless steel, bolts of fiberglass cloth and buckets of resin into their garage -- then making strange noises of a nevening -- pop over, introduce yourself and ask if you can see the boat they're obviously building in their garage. If they turn you away -- just let the authorities know that their *may* be something risky going on.
Of course if it *is* a boat or legitimate project they're building then that new neighbor will likely itnroduce themselves and be more than happy to show off the results of their labor.

So it's better to ignore the problem and simply *hope* that all those university educated terrorists with millions of dollars in funding won't think of this idea themselves??
I honestly don't think that's a smart move.
-- you can contact me via http://aardvark.co.nz/contact /
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Airline hijacking solution is EASY.
Each passenger is issued access to one frangible firearms or weapon. (anything that will not take down the plane)
Pilot hits a button and the hatches open giving access to the weapons.
their would never be a successful hijacking anywhere ever again and probably never even be a "serious" hijacking attempt ever again.
Problem solved. NO rights restricted or removed.
Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com /

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Chris Taylor Jr wrote:

I had the same idea - put them in the little overhead cabinets along with the oxygen mask... pilot pushes the "repel boarders" button, pistol drops down on a string for each passenger to use...
-dave w
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Given all the untrained marksmen, it might be better to drop stun guns. Or have a way to just gas the plane with something that incapacitates everyone (except the pilots!) but isn't fatal. That gives the crew time to handcuff the bad guys, dump them out the hatch, and take back control of the airplane.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
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writes:

probably
everyone
http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.nar.org
http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
Why not just seal each passenger in his own little box. The problem is sol-ved. :-)
John
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The only way to be sure that no one brings weapons or things that might be used as weapons aboard an airplane is to replace United, American, Delta, et al with "Buck Naked Airlines"...
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote:

I agree!
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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IIRC that didn't work too well in that Russian theater........anyone with comromised health will suffer, some until death

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Chuck Rudy

VooDoo Digital Productions
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IMO they should just use happy gas, preemptively. Why not let everyone party or have a group hug on the flight?
- iz
Chuck Rudy wrote:

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Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed wrote:

I'm likin' your idea Iz!
:-)
--

Chuck Rudy

VooDoo Digital Productions
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Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed wrote:

As far as I can tell, such a substance ("happy gas" or "knockout gas") is an urban legend... I don't think there is any substance which, dispersed into the air, will reliably and safely induce a state of unconsciousness or intoxication.
-dave w

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if there is, I'm sure it is DoD classified
- iz
David Weinshenker wrote:

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Now thats a cool idea.
If I ever catch a hijacker on my plane I plan to ask the pilot with a wink if we can "accidentally" open the hatch at 6k or so :-)
he struggled opened the door and out he went. we will just not mention the part about my foot up his ass as he went out.
Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com /

everyone
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Point!
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Any US government security agency that couldn't put "airplane hijacking" and "suicide bomber" together and come up with exactly the scenario we saw on 9/11 isn't fit to guard the donuts at an Overeaters Anonymous meeting.
I'd ask how incompetent our security agencies are, and why we waste so much money on them, except I already know the answer...
A handful of terrorists murdered thousands of innocent civilians. But our own government is jsut as responsible for those acts as the terrorists: they created the envirnment that GUARANTEED it would happen, and did nothing to prevent it. It's almost as if they WANTED a disaster like this to happen to justify global warfare.

It never has been. The only time it can even sort of work is when your ATTACKER is the one without the knowledge. If the attackers are smart, and the victims are clueless, they are sitting ducks. Unless they have cell phones and use the phrase "Lets roll!"
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
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