12 volt power source?

Ray Haddad skriver:


No, that's what is called an unregulated power supply.
A regulated power supply contains an active omponen thet regulates the output voltage and/or current.
http://my.integritynet.com.au/purdic/power1.html http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_9/1.html
Klaus
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On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 08:01:53 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card"
replied:

They're all part, Klaus. Try building a regulated power supply without those. The wall cube forms the first part or a chain. -- Ray
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On 12/22/2007 11:18 PM Ray Haddad spake thus:

What a lame-ass answer.
But I see what you've been doing: playing with semantics, all to avoid owning up to your being totally wrong in your arguments so far.
Yes, a wall wart can form PART of a REGULATED power supply, IF the regulating part of the circuit is inside the thing being powered. But BY ITSELF, the wall wart is (always, in my experience), UNREGULATED. To put it more precisely, any power supply that only contains a transformer, rectifier and filter is UNREGULATED by itself. Anyone reading my many previous posts (except, apparently, you) would have gotten that by now.
And yes, we know (or at least I do) that zener diodes are used as voltage regulators. But as I said, I've never even seen a zener in the many wall warts I've dismantled, meaning that they're totally unregulated.
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On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 00:06:37 -0800, I said, "Pick a card, any card"

Actually, I never, ever stated that ALL wall warts contained regulated power supplies. That was down to you and Greg. You claimed you opened billions of them and never found even one. Ok. Not billions but you see what you did, right? You moved my statement over to where YOU could win. Instead of sticking to the original comments I made, you moved it over and made a big stink over it.
In fact, I never stated that ALL wall warts contained regulated power supplies only that they made up a composite power supply with their load. Go back and see. Loading is necessary to get them to be at the proper voltage according to what is printed on them. For you to make such a stink over your own misleading comments is very bad form, David. Very bad.

David, I spent over 40 years in electronics. Don't pretend to tell me what a regulated power supply consists of.

Thank you. I have seen them there. You can't have opened every wall wart in existence. However, let me point out that you probably opened those you believed weren't working properly. That leads me to believe you opened them because the voltage was incorrect. That also leads me to suspect that because of your mistaken beliefs, they weren't really bad at all just unregulated.
I had a friend who put a 7805 circuit on a 12 volt wall wart. It promptly caught fire. Both the circuit he built and the wall wart. The reason? There was a 7512 in the wall wart. Disaster.
This entire subject has been hijacked by you and Greg. All I stated was that there were no 13.8 volt batteries out there and that the wall cubes that put out that voltage were chargers, not power supplies. Now, kindly knock it off and stick to what you know. -- Ray
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Ray Haddad wrote:

Here's a laboratory power supply from Jaycar Electronics: <http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords nch+power+supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=>
Here's a laboratory power supply from Dick Smith Electronics: <http://dseau.resultspage.com/search.php?sessionidG6eb5e50123fe3a273fc0a87f9c0718&w=Power+supply+13.8&site=&submit.x &submit.y=8>
Sorry the links are so long but that takes you to the specific product.
I've been involved with fitting ship, boat and truck radio/depth finding etc gear (AWA NZ, a division of RCA USA) All our gear was rated at 13.8 volts because that's the operating voltage found on batteries in circuit in those situations.
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On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 08:34:58 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card"

That's because they run from a generator or an alternator and not a 12 volt battery which is never, ever going to be at 13.8 volts. -- Ray
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Ray Haddad wrote:

><http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3078&CATID=&keywords nch+power+supply&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=>
><http://dseau.resultspage.com/search.php?sessionidG6eb5e50123fe3a273fc0a87f9c0718&w=Power+supply+13.8&site=&submit.x &submit.y=8>
LOL.
The battery is in circuit between the generator/alternator and the load, it's an integral part of the voltage regulation circuit. If the alternator and the load are at 13.8 volts then the battery _must_ be at ...?
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On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 09:36:14 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card"

No, Greg. The entire CIRCUIT is at 13.8 volts. Not the battery. When you turn off the motor, the battery drops to 12 volts just like always. You really don't understand batteries. Just leave it at that. Otherwise you'll keep on making a fool of yourself. -- Ray
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Ray Haddad wrote:

Exactly Ray - geeze, it really takes a _long_ time for you to not understand the completely obvious!

Why do you keep stating that which is only correct when the battery is at 12 volts?

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On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 07:30:19 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card"

Baloney. You've been spewing from the mountaintops that a 12 volt battery will measure 13.8 volts and that's simply wrong. Don't try to weasel out of it now. Everyone here has been trying to convince you that the CHARGING circuit is 13.8 volts and now you pretend you knew it all along.
A 12 volt battery will not ever measure 13.8 volts as you stated.

Because a 12 volt battery will never, ever measure 13.8 volts. Ever.

This one bears repeating. You simply don't understand batteries, Greg. -- Ray
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Ray Haddad wrote:

That battery company I cited is going to be very disappointed!

In that case the car electric connected to said battery will never measure 13.8 volts. Ever. The information that voltages above 13.8 volts will cause gassing is sort of wasted really.

Fair point - care to design my current electric car design for me?
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On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:13:33 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card"

They're on the same page as me, Greg. Why would you believe otherwise?

Exactly. Not without external potential added. A battery circuit, including the battery, can be driven to a higher voltage but that process is known as charging. When used as a source of power, a battery will never be at 13.8 volts. It's a physics thing.

That's what the float limit is all about. Gassing causes the electrolyte's hydrogen to leave the battery. It's a serious issue. If you charge at too high a voltage, the electrolyte outgasses and you get spidering between the cells which can cause cell failure. Water vapor also escapes during gassing which lowers the levels. Gel batteries don't suffer that same fate but an overcharge voltage on them can cause swelling and cell failure from heat.

No thanks, mate. I'm converting one now. A Dihatsu Mira-J. I'm so pleased about how clean the car has become since the engine is gone. I've got 3 years invested in it and don't expect to finish for at least another 3. Batteries (huge power sources) are getting cheaper and different every day.
Have you looked at the commercially available fuel cells? Brilliant! http://www.batterybook.com/default.asp
Look in the middle column, third one down. The best part? They're literally a few miles away from me.
Now, Greg, I'm offering you a Boxing Day olive branch. Can we end this seemingly endless debate and get back to trains? -- Ray
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Ray Haddad wrote:

Are you saying the battery in a normal automobile has no function other than when the engine is turned off?

I've certainly had enough of it!

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On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 14:49:22 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card"

It sure doesn't appear that you mean this.
So, do you build your own switches? -- Ray
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Ray Haddad wrote:

As in turnouts?
That will have to be a yes/no answer. I have built my own in the past and have modified proprietry ones. My two current HO layouts use Peco: - shunting layout code 100 with nothing standard. - my main layout has Peco Code 75, again all modified. I started with ME code 70 track and hand-made turnouts but decided proprietry turnouts were quicker. - I'm currently tooling up to produce NZR 45mm gauge turnouts. (by alternative scale :-)
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On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 16:24:00 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card"

Well, yes.

I did sort of the same thing but in N-Scale. I used the Athabasca brass turnout to build one left and one right. Had to use stripped down flex track because finding a source of extruded rail was impossible. To be honest, the benefits of doing them by hand was only mental. I did relax during the work but there wasn't anything special about them as far as operationally. Thus, for me, the manufacturer's turnouts are easier.
I'd like to find a source of extruded metal on a roll for G-Scale track. Oh, yeah! Those lovely Australian hardwoods are just begging to become rail ties. Begging. -- Ray
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Ray Haddad wrote:

The advantage I was initially going for was more correct sleeper size and spacing than Peco makes. (era and prototype) I finally decided the difference would be minimal.

Well, err, it's not exactly flexible to a managable roll size! Getting it straight again would require rollers.

Right now I'm milling PVC.
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On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 16:54:07 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card"

Big rolls. Really big rolls.

That doesn't conduct very well for rail use. -- Ray
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Ray Haddad wrote:

Well, if you've got really big money just get a die made and have it produced! I'd consider buying say code 215 in nickel silver.

Err no, I'm buying expensive NS rail locally. I don't need very much to produce turnouts.
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Ray Haddad wrote: [...]

Micro Engineering makes Code 40/55/70/83/100, "weathered" (brown) and non-weathered n/s. Code 40, 55 are right for N, code 70 is OK.
Peco makes code 60/75/80 n/s. Code 50 is right for N, 75 is OK, 80 matches standard sectional N track by Peco, Atlas and others.

Micro Engineering: code 125, 148, 205, 250 n/s, and 250, 332 in aluminum.
Peco: code 250 brass
Code 250 and up will work nicely for G, but code 148 and 205 would look better IMO. But most G wheels have flanges that too deep for this rail.
HTH
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