12 volt power source?

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 18:10:00 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card"


None of them are, Greg.

Not everything. Just the wrong stuff. Oh. Wait. -- Ray
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On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 14:36:46 +1300, Greg Procter wrote:

Ozzies running with a few dead cells, eh?
--
Steve

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Greg Procter skriver:

No........ Definitly not
Did you read the link I gave you, Im happy to give it to you again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery After full charge the terminal voltage will drop quickly to 13.2 V and then slowly to 12.6 V.
Klaus
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"Klaus D. Mikkelsen" wrote:

You'd prefer Wikipedia over the manufacturer's data? 13.8 volts is the level an automotive battery will charge to. 13.2 volts is the voltage it will "quickly" drop to. 12.6 volts is the voltage it will eventually settle to.
The definition of "quickly" and "eventually" will depend upon the age, sulfation and acid percentage, but one could carry the new fully charged battery home from the garage, have tea and then connect it to the layout and still find a voltage between 13.8 and 13.2 volts. The following week, without use it will be at 12.6 volts. If one were to place a 12v car battery between a low amp battery charger and one's rheostat controller, a setup as has often been used in the past, there would be 13.8 volts on the track.
13.8 volts is the _maximum_ but it is the maximum working voltage of an automotive battery.
Regards, Greg.P.
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Greg Procter skriver:

Wouod yo be so kind to ponit me to a data sheet showing tha at lead-acid battey has a nominal voltage of 13,8 volt at full charge.
Klaus
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On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 08:20:27 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card"
replied:

I wasn't going to push him for a reference, Klaus. Cornered beasts can be deadly. As long as he doesn't have to prove anything, he's harmless. -- Ray
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"Klaus D. Mikkelsen" wrote:

Google 13.8 volts along with Lead Acid and you'll be swamped with information.
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On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 10:11:54 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card"

Mostly wrong. Is that your primary source? Wrong information? -- Ray
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Ray Haddad wrote:

LOL - my sources are wrong and your sources are right!
Is that your primary source? Wrong information?
My primary sources are battery manufacturer's data sheets collected during the 1970s when I was building electric cars.
Greg.P. NZ
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On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 10:35:24 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card"

And none of them will define the output voltage at 13.8 volts. That's the recommended charge voltage, not the battery nominal voltage. My sources are indeed right and if you found any that stated a battery is 13.8 volts, they'd be dead wrong. -- Ray
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Greg Procter skriver:

I did: <http://www.google.dk/search?hl &q.8+volts++Lead+Acid&btnG=Google-s%C3%B8gning&meta=>
And what came up? Chargers......
I'll ask again: Coud you please point me to a datasheet showing the nominal voltage of a normal lead-acid battery beeing 13,8 volt ?
Klaus
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"Klaus D. Mikkelsen" wrote:

<http://www.google.dk/search?hl &q.8+volts++Lead+Acid&btnG=Google-s%C3%B8gning&meta=>
Yes Klaus, the _operating range of a 12 volt lead acid battery is up to 13.8 volts - that's the maximum voltage it will hold. _Nominal_ voltage is 12 volts, but a newly charged battery will supply 13.8 volts (13.6-13.8 volts) to a model railway. That's how it has been since 12 volt car batteries have been fitted to automobiles.
"nominal voltage" is what the layout will normally see, but any voltage sensitive equipment will initially see 13.8 volts. Any layout operated by a small battery charger charging a car battery, as was quite often used when HO models were standardized, will provide 13.8 volts to the layout.
http://sealake.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008802449598/pdtl/Sealed-lead-acid/8816217775/12V100Ah-Nominal-Capacity-Rechargeable-Sealed-Lead-Acid-Battery.htm http://www.electronicsforu.com/efylinux/circuit/feb2003/sept99_chargemonitor.pdf
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On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 14:24:22 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card"

Take remedial reading.
Greg. Both of those articles agree with me. A 12 volt battery has a nominal voltage of 12 volts. Not 13.8 volts. A charger is recommended at a minimum of 10% over which happens to be 13.2 volts so their recommendation of 15% over is well within my minimum. -- Ray
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Ray Haddad wrote:

>http://sealake.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008802449598/pdtl/Sealed-lead-acid/8816217775/12V100Ah-Nominal-Capacity-Rechargeable-Sealed-Lead-Acid-Battery.htm
>http://www.electronicsforu.com/efylinux/circuit/feb2003/sept99_chargemonitor.pdf
Ray, a 12 volt lead-acid battery will charge to 13.8 volts and retain that voltage for a period of time. One can draw sufficient current from said battery to run a average model railway locomotive without the voltage dropping noticably. If one uses a small trickle charger with a car battery to provide power for a layout (common 1930s-1960s) then one's layout will be operated at 13.8 volts smooth DC.
Regards, Greg.P.
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On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 08:06:14 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card"

No. It won't. -- Ray
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Ray Haddad wrote:

It's time you bought a new battery!
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On 12/23/2007 12:41 PM Greg Procter spake thus:

Now, Greg, you've been following my recent battle with Ray here, so you know I'm not one of his fans. He's basically a snot, and one who will never admit he's wrong.
But the fact is that you are spectacularly wrong here, and are apparently competing with Ray for Snot of the Year.
Lead-acid batteries produce about 2 volts per cell. A 12-volt battery is as close to 12 volts as no never mind. (I measured mine and it was 12.5 volts.)
Not 13.8 volts. Time for *you* to admit you're wrong here.
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David Nebenzahl wrote:

Perhaps you're not reading what I'm writing?
eg: A 13.8 volt battery charged to 13.8 volts will be at 13.8 volts.
and: A nominal 12 volt battery in series with an alternator/generator/trickle charger will be at 13.8 volts ... The point, winding back to the original question, is that the "12 volts DC" of model railways can be as high as 13.8 volts because ... I doubt that there are any model railway components that are designed to cope with 12 volts DC that can't cope with 13.8 volts DC.
I don't want to compete for the 'Snot of the Year' prize, but from the perspective of the above context I don't see that "admitting I'm wrong" would serve any useful purpose.
Regards, Greg.P.
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On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 11:03:06 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card"

There's no such animal, Greg. -- Ray
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David Nebenzahl wrote:

Well David, you seem to be trying to follow Ray's lead here.
You didn't say what sort of vehicle you measured on, but the recent U.S. models, all have a fair amount of constantly connected electronics.* Which will rapidly drain the 13.8 V level down to 13, or 12.5 depending on the time interval since last charge cycle.
* Electric Clock -- minimal drain, Radio --- memory for station presets (the push button station selection.), and other weird and wonderful 'Bells & Whistles' that 'Marketing has convinced people they just HAVE to have.
Chuck D.
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