No, you don't _need_ them. You _want_ them. It's your confusion of need and want that misleads you into believing that you are somehow entitled to having manufacturers making locomotives for what is a small market. A very small market, in fact.
The "serious model railroader" market in North America is around
100,000. A rather small fraction (much less than 10% I suspect) of which are serious NYC fans. And of those serious NYC fans, most are not as focussed on protoypical engine selection as you are. And of those who share your prefernce, a minority model late 30s NYC, and even fewer one year in that time frame.
You are minority within a minority within a minority within a minority, in fact. Live with it.
I'm with you there. I have a very nice display case at home that I could fill with several pieces of brass and other high-end models. I could have gazed at them by the hour, or I could have gone to my neighbor's house and operate his tinplate. No contest, I'm gonna run the tinplate vs. admiring my collection (if I wanted to gaze at stuff like that, I'd be into stamp collecting). Now if it came down to running my scale models vs. running tinplate, that's different... :-)
Paul A. Cutler III
************* Weather Or No Go New Haven
*************
Oh, puh-lease. You don't want the basics, you want road specific locomotives for October in 1938! How is that a "basic"? "Basic" are things like USRA locos, F-units, and 40' AAR boxcars, things that almost all railroads had (and can therefore be made en masse). If you want NYC locos for 1938, make 'em yourself, ferchrissakes. This is a model building hobby, is it not? Or if you don't have the skill, pay someone else to make 'em. Or if you don't have the skill or the money, write encouraging letters to a manufacturer. They do listen, but not to "cranks" such as yourself. I have to say you are the only model railroader I've ever heard take to task a manufacturer for daring to make a darn good locomotive model *for their own railroad*. Nobody in my experience has ever done so. Congratulations!
No, they should be making models that make them money. This isn't a charitable organization, this is a manufacturer that pays real people real money to work on making model trains.
Heh. The Virginian only had them 3 years before being merged with the N&W in 1959. The N&W only had them for 4 years (only 3 of them working) before selling them to the New Haven. The NH had them for 5 years (1963-68), the Penn Central for 7 years (1969-76), and Conrail for 5 years until the end of electric freight in 1981. Your Niagras you hate so much were positively ancient by lasting over 10 years on the NYC compared to the EL-C/EF-4/E33's record on one road.
And brass doesn't count?
Hmm...it says "NEW HAVEN" on the side, it's got a tapered nose, a 4-6-4 wheel arrangement, and it's got a silver stripe down the running board that follows onto the tender. I don't know why I ever could say it was supposed to be a New Haven I-5...since that's pretty much what the I-5's had for a paint scheme. Sure, it's crap, no two ways about it, but they are selling it as a New Haven locomotive model. If you can't understand that, I don't know what to say. As to me being a "complete moron"...get a grip. You've been on r.m.r long enough (you used to have a sense of humor) to know what that will tend to get in response. Why even say it?
I guess that bit just went over your head, didn't it? Just because you haven't experienced too many mainline layouts doesn't mean that branchline layouts are the "large majority" of the hobby, it just means you haven't seen too many mainline layouts. Ok?
229.09 miles, GCT to Boston, and the NH carried some 1.7 million passengers from Boston to New York in 1950. The NH was only 30th in size at around 2000 route miles, but it was 3rd in passengers carried. So while the runs were short, the service was not (at least until the end, anyways, where it was down to 300,000 passengers).
If he's not a model railroader, then neither are you. It's that simple...
Paul A. Cutler III
************* Weather Or No Go New Haven
*************
Certainly the boilers are different, as is the location of the air pump and some other details, but as I said, it would be very close. What's better: waiting for a H-5 to drop into your hand and fretting and fuming about it in the meantime, or spending probably half the price of any potential BLI engine for something that looks FAR more like a H-5 than most any other engine on the market, which would furthermore not be something everybody else has, giving you mucho bragging rights, and finally, having the relaxing fun of building it. Yes, it IS relaxing to build metal kits,***** IF YOU DON'T HURRY! By the time you're done, you'll have forgotten whatever you were irritated about when you started. Furthermore, most of the Bowser kits are about 40% off right now.
If the boiler really is a problem, then get out your flat file and buy an old Mantua heavy Mike on Ebay or at a train show, as long as the seller isn't one of those RARE L@@K weirdos. The mech should be usable. Strip the boiler of domes, cab, et cetera, and add new details. Cost probably about $80 all said and done.
Cordially yours, Gerard P.
***** Exception for the truly horrifying Arbour line.
Hurry is the mother and father of all screw ups. It's better and faster to take twice as long the first time than it is to take four times as long to do it over.
Having read this thread with interest, I can understand (up to a point) the original posting, & the fact that his letter was not published in theMR mag. That, I would think is nothing unusual for any mag, as they reserve the right to publish &/or edit what they like, whether we like it or not.
Above that, I doubt if there is anyone in the model railway fraternity that does not have his favourite system, engine, era, etc. that they want to model. Being an ex steam fireman, & then driver on the NSWGR (Australia) from 1964 -1988, I have a real desire to model the steam era in my state of the mid - late 50's.
For many years this has been an excercise of almost endless impossibilties. Firstly from the perspective of raising a family, & then trying to live off a meagre income following on from being medically retired.
Secondly to model anything other than overseas railways, IE: British, European, US & the like was out of the average modelers pocket range. The only option we had was many some close, or near enough was good enough models of one steam type, & one diesel type. Even the early brass examples were near enough.
were acceptable, the prices were very much out of the reach of most modellers. The next step was the white metal, & brass kits, which brought the price in to the reach of many in the hobby, however, even this created a problem.
Theat problem being, if you did not have the skils to build them, used the wrong solder etc, you ended up with not much more than molten metal. This brought a new industry in to the hobby, the kit assemblers. For a price you could have you white metal kit assembled, the cost was the same price as you paid for the kit. So a $450.00 kit became $900.00 plus painting of around $50.00 +. Thus the kit form was not cheap.
Today we are fortunate that there is a large new industry, of manufacturing loco's in China in RTR plastic, hwoever we must wait for our favourites, while others get their favourites in the first rush.
Over the ensuring years, I have seen many of the U.S models that have been produced, many models of one type with different road names etc. I do not know how genuine this is/was but at leas the variety was there. As I watch the BLI, Athern, & others bringing out models I am amazed at the quality & the prices that they come in, & in some ways wonder should I go that way. But no, I will stick out & await the engines I know will come one day.
If a model comes out based on the system I am modelling, even if its a low priority one that I wanted to purchase then, I would not growl, I would buy it & be thankful.
I don't know an enormous amount about the US railways, but I do know that they had some beautifull looking loco's many of them brutish, which I like, many I don't.
To me, while I understand the desire to have the more common engines used on your favourite system, others have said much depends on the commercial viability of a particular model, & that is something that I agree with, if its gunna sell, then they will make it, if its not then they not gunna make it.
We have some adventorous people in the hobby here, who have mortgaged their houses in order to produce models, despite some hiccups in arrival times, the projects are going ahead full steam. They have surveyed the market & they are on a winner.
Perhaps, if the original writer was able to get say, 200-300 others interested in producing a model, then they could approach BLI or whoever, & get it made, the thing will be though, money will have to change hands.
The interesting thing is, that I would have thought the BLI models were big run items when compared to what is made for the much smaller Australian market. From what I understand, that is not so. Rhe run of one of our loco's is more than twice that of the average US model
Ok, I'll be honest and this is just my personal opinion. I think the UK steam looks like fantasy equipment, all kinda flowery like it should be in a Beatles movie. Beauty? No, I don't think so. I think SP's daylight is much more attractive and the NYC locomotives as well. I prefer North American, and after that German or African steam. I also think F units are kinda plain. I prefer big bulky chunky locomotives, and deisel over steam. Hey, but that neither validates or invalidates your mine or anybody elses preference for locomotives. Maybe I just like ugly locomotives :-). Nah, I like all locomotives, just some more than others.
As for how this thread got started: The launching post was pretty harsh and poorly presented. There is a point in there that if you're trying to replicate railroad rosters then you'd think that the most common locomotives would make the most common models. However, I don't know if the general population thinks that way. So the smartest thing for manufactures to do is make what will sell the most. (Hence F's out the wazoo). Unusual items also seem to sell pretty good so I think that's why you see so many eccentric items being manufactured, even if there were few prototype units. A better crafted post might have gained more sympathy than an insult shot at MR staff.
Jb (I've never truely understood the general public)
a6et: The only recent US loco kits that assembled like this were the obnoxious and disgusting Arbour line...made of pewter...may the fleas of 1000 camels infest their designer. Bowser, MDC, and Mantua kits are assembled with screws, and are zamak alloy rather than white metal. Alas, Mantua kits are no more, and MDC are in limbo for at least a while.
Our kits also tend to be cheaper than yours. MDC in particular used to be a great bargain, and I really hope they'll be back out. The prices ranged from $35 to $80 US. Mantua used to be equally cheap until they got it into their heads that they were making collectibles like Lionel. Bye, Mantua kits.
I really hope that eventually this flood of RTR stuff will slacken, just like the flood of inexpensive brass did, and kit building will return, just as it did before when the brass got too high.
Buying Mantua can be an exercise in frustration, lots of advertising for them, but usually the advertising is all that's available. I did pick up a Mantua Mikado about a week ago, but the level of workmanship in assembling it was something I'd hide. Their list price of $229 is more than a little steep for what it is. They don't even make any attempt to hide the fact that the wheelsets in their pilot trucks are only the same wheelsets used for freightcar trucks, bearing points and all.
MDC and Horizon are the one that really irk me. MDC kits were just beautiful and could be taken to any level of detail you wanted for a reasonable price. Now I see their old timer series of flats advertised for only three times as much, and don't bother looking for them, "not available". Don't bother asking them about replacement parts either, their service staff is completely clueless.
Bowser is at least reasonably priced, and I haven't had them back order anything I've ordered yet. Pulling down the "Poor Damn Format" for the detail lines they have is worthwhile, lots of good stuff. (Gotta give adobe credit, if there was a slower and less efficient way to include something in their files, they used it and are still looking for slower ways.) The Cary conversions are a way of getting something out of the ordinary without having to give up an arm and both legs. The extra weight doesn't hurt anything either.
Kit building isn't dead, but it's doing damn poorly.
"Oh, puh-lease. You don't want the basics, you want road specific locomotives for October in 1938! How is that a "basic"?"
It's basic because H-5 served the Central from 1912 to 1957. It's the GP-7 of the Central.
" "Basic" are things like USRA locos, F-units, and 40' AAR boxcars, things that almost all railroads had (and can therefore be made en masse). "
No. These are generic things. There's a difference.
"If you want NYC locos for 1938,..."
No, I want a ubiquitous locomotive that can be used on nearly any steam or transition NYC layout and several others because they interchanged with the central or bought them from the central.
"No, they should be making models that make them money. This isn't a charitable organization, this is a manufacturer that pays real people real money to work on making model trains."
So they can paint them in Santa Fe, UP and [shudder] Pennsy as they can then get the rubes to buy one.
"Your Niagras you hate so much were positively ancient by lasting over
10 years on the NYC compared to the EL-C/EF-4/E33's record on one road."
I don't hate them, I just think they're statistically irrelevant and the tooling cost would have been better spent on a more ubiquitous locomotive than on an also-ran.
"And brass doesn't count?"
Not everyone can swing brass.
"Hmm...it says "NEW HAVEN" on the side, it's got a tapered nose, a
4-6-4 wheel arrangement, and it's got a silver stripe down the running board that follows onto the tender. I don't know why I ever could say it was supposed to be a New Haven I-5...since that's pretty much what the I-5's had for a paint scheme. Sure, it's crap, no two ways about it, but they are selling it as a New Haven locomotive model. If you can't understand that, I don't know what to say."
IHC sells their hudson as alot of things, it doesn't make it credible.
"As to me being a "complete moron"...get a grip. You've been on r.m.r long enough (you used to have a sense of humor) to know what that will tend to get in response. Why even say it?
Chops, the busting of.
"If he's not a model railroader, then neither are you. It's that simple... "
"Certainly the boilers are different, as is the location of the air pump and some other details, but as I said, it would be very close. What's better: waiting for a H-5 to drop into your hand and fretting and fuming about it in the meantime, or spending probably half the price of any potential BLI engine for something that looks FAR more like a H-5 than most any other engine on the market, which would furthermore not be something everybody else has, giving you mucho bragging rights, and finally, having the relaxing fun of building it. Yes, it IS relaxing to build metal kits,*****
I can do both. It's called multi-tasking. :-)
Actually, I've been exploring the possibility using the IHC 2-8-0 which is a good start for a NYC G-5/G-6 consolidation by stretching boiler like the central did to make the H-5.
"If the boiler really is a problem, then get out your flat file and buy an old Mantua heavy Mike on Ebay or at a train show, as long as the seller isn't one of those RARE L@@K weirdos. The mech should be usable. Strip the boiler of domes, cab, et cetera, and add new details. Cost probably about $80 all said and done."
Actually the mantua has been alledged to be a good starting point for a NYC H-10.
"**** Exception for the truly horrifying Arbour line."
Arbour kits aren't bad once you resign yourself to the fact that you'll have to scratchbuild a chassis and replace the cast rods with brass ones.
Interesting stuff there. I hadn't thought of stretching a 2-8-0.
It started when I melted the crosshead guide with my soldering iron and went downhill from there. I must say it was very ingenious of them to space the axle slots slightly differently from the siderod holes, and to use a flexible rubber tube as a combination tender-motor driveshaft and drawbar. Blaaaaaaaargh. I gave that monstrous thing away to a local watch repairman.
(This was the Sylvania Central 2-6-0, which I understand was one of their better kits. Too bad its mechanics were so crudacious; the castings actually looked pretty nice, and the loco did look pretty good as I put it together.)
I guess that in the kit area at least, we do have an edge here, as the kits that are produced for the OZ market are exceptional. When assembled they really look the part, all run & pull well, however its the cost of between AU$220.00 for an 0-6-0 & $585.00 Beyer Garratt that's the killer. If you can't assemble them yourself & want them assembled double the kit price & that is the killer.
It seems that the 2 main white metal kit manufaturers that work for the OZ market, are very well known for their quality, they come from New Zealand & England. Several of our local rolling stock manuafacturers who sell are selling RTR models are sourcing like so many others from China. But, the rub here is that others who offer goods rolling stock in kit form, as well as in RTR run form of the same model, are producing in OZ or some in New Zealand, amazingly the prices are well in line with the Chinese imports. One hobby retailer/manufacturer advised me that given the opportunity the industry in OZ can produce equal, if not better models than China, at comparable prices.
We now have a RTR garratt with DCC & sound $785.00 pre paid price or off the shelf for $935.00. Either way I come out cheaper that a kit, & paid for assembly. To buy the models of our system, is very much more expensive than in the states, for the loco's offfered. The 38class pacific loco, in white metal kit, is $385.00, & paid for by 31/01/06 is $495.00 plus 90 for DCC & Sound, add $100.00 after delivery price. Again, better options than the kits for me.
WE have yet to see steam loco's RTR at prices such as BLI or the like. I noted in the IHC add December MR Mag for a Sante Fe 2-10-2 including
8 car Pax set for U.S$179.98, or a Sante Fe Hudson foron sale at $99.98, plus a 2nd one, or an 0-8-0 for half price. Prices such as that are unbelievable here.
PolyTech Forum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.