"Phil" wrote
And then try explaining to someone who struggles with the two wire concept (and believe me they do) that their second loco will have to be coded using a programming track ...................................
John.
Wolf Kirchmeir wrote:-
Sound is a crucial factor for me as regards the GM. I listen to Freightliner
66's revving up on the nearby freight bypass line every night. I might still buy the Bachmann if it has the transparent side grilles which are such a feature of the 66. I would definitely buy it if it had a built-in sound FX.(kim)
"Adrian" wrote
You need to see the cheapskate attitude of some modellers to realise that an extra tenner would have them screaming in rage, especially the collectors (probably around 50% of the market) who don't run their stuff at all.
This is the only decoder which we've had problems with, and I'd suggest caution. Personally if you're looking at the budget end of the market for decoders I'd be tempted with the LE1014 range from Lenz. OK, so they're 50% more that the LE1000A, but they offer a whole lot more.
John.
John Turner wrote:-
It costs as much to fit an empty DCC socket to a model as it costs to fit a fully working chip. That is why most consumer electronics no longer have plug-in chips. How much the finished model sells-for is a different matter altogether. It is up to the marketing directors whether they prefer to sell low-price/low-margin or high-price/high-margin products. The ones selling low-price/low-margin goods will probably not survive in any case.
(kim)
And those DCC chips will be pretty useless to most modellers....
--
***Rich Mackin wrote:-
Empty DCC sockets are useless to most modellers but just as expensive to fit. We're back to the chicken & egg situation. If UK distributors made no provision of any kind for DCC it would never become popular. Foreign distributors did make provision for DCC and it did become popular. The same is true for five-pole motors, flywheel drive, etc.
(kim)
And the few modellers who want DCC can fit the decoder of their choice that does precisely what they want, instead of the majority of DC-using modellers having to remove the one forced on them... I still can't see a case for DCC-fitted locos as standard.
--
***Rich Mackin wrote: [...]
You don't have to remove the DCC - if the lcoc has the version that automatically detects which kind of power it's running with. From the user's p.o.v, it's just another DC loco.
Over half the locos reviewed in Model Railroader and Railroad Model Craftsman this year have had DC/DCC compatible sound included, BTW. Neat. Run it on DC, you get sound. Run it on DCC, you get sound.
The bottom line: it's already the case that making pure DC locos is an obsolescent marketing strategy - even for the trainset crowd, who won't know or care what kind of engine they have, so long as hooking up two wires "makes it go."
The latest wrinkle is two-way DCC - the locomotive sends a signal back to the controller. (NMRA is working on a standard for that, so that we won't be burdened with incompatible protocols.) That means that in short order, you won't have to program a loco. The controller will query a loco's address, and will assign a new one if needed. You won't have to know the loco's address, all that will be taken care of by the 2-way bus. The trainset crowd will only have to hook up two wires, and go. Of course if they want a layout with a return loop, they will need some tutoring. But then, so did most "serious" modellers that I have known, including myself. :-)
"Wolf Kirchmeir" wrote
Not if you're using a feedback DC controller.
John.
John Turner wrote:-
But a lot of motors don't work with feedback controllers either?
(kim)
By the sound of John's comments about some of his customers, there is little or no chance of them knowing whether their controller is or isn't pulse-width modulated - *I* don't know which are and which aren't. I use a Gaugemaster twin and a pair of old Duette controllers, so I guess I'm OK. What about the ones that come in Hornby sets - I'll bet they won't drive a DCC loco. So you'll have the most novice end of the market unable to run a loco off the shelf.
Going back to my initial statement, it needs to be OPTIONAL - ie switchable rather than "it might work on your DC layout, but you might have to go and buy a better controller". That scenario is enough to put Bachmann / Hornby et al off the idea of fitting them as standard.
If the DC / DCC was switchable, it would have to be done without taking the loco apart, otherwise, we are right back to square one. DC (being the less technically minded end of the market) would have to be the default setting, and if the loco has to be taken appart to enable DCC, then DCCers might as well fit their own chip with the functions they actually want.
I am generally in favour of DCC. I'd like to go DCC myself. However, it has to be brought in in a way which won't immediately alienate a whole section of the buying public.
Adrian
Yes, but in the fairly near future the question is going to be "how much extra are you willing to pay to /not/ have DCC fitted?" - because from the manufacturer's point of view it'll be cheaper to build it in.
/nods/..
Phil: The gaugemaster's unless they claim 'feedback', will be 'pure dc' electronic controllers (low source impedance, variable voltage, and as much current as ohms law will allow the motor/track/short circuit to take up to the limit in the controller.
The Duettes- if they have high/low resistance were also DC, but not as good as the electronic controllers, due to the waste of power in the resistor mat.
Phil: On the contrary! - They are now simple electronic controllers, and run my dcc equipped locos on a temporary test track without any problem!
SOME OLD TRIANG OR H+M controllers used 'variwave' which will have had a 'pulse' effect, as will others that had a 'half wave switch': these should be avoided.
Phil
On a similar note, has anyone here heard anything about the Model Rail limited edition 40? Of D200 in her 80's colours? Last I'd heard was that because of the delay in production Bachmann were going to send them across amongst the first batches.
"kim" wrote
As far as I'm aware all DC motors will work with feedback controllers, just that some work more successfully than others.
John.
"James Christie" wrote I assume its going to have DCC and working lights at least, all recent Bachmann modern image models have (I do of course stand to be corrected, and probably will... :-) ). I think that in act only the Class 37 has lights...
The 04, 08, 20, 24, 25, 40, & 45 don't...of which all but the first 2 are DCC socket fitted. I have no idea about the hydraulic red things from "darn sarf"...
The DMU's however I think are light fitted, but no DCC sockets.. (With the exception of the Voyager)
But, like yourself, I stand to be corrected and no doubt will be.!!!
Andy
"John Turner" wrote No I don't agree. I have a significant number of DCC customers and not one has asked for DCC fitted loco's, all being perfectly happy to fit their own decoders.
John.
With respect to this comment John, Aren't the RTR DCC locos only avilable in the new EZ sets? Surely an already converted DCCer will not want one of these unless they are wanting to have a play with this new controller?
I thought that Idea was to get new folk started...
I have only come across fitted chips in Bachmann locos cortesy of some nice staff in a model shop, if not then I thought they were all DIY at the moment?
Therefore really, I can see why non of the DCC customers would want to buy one, but I don't see how it supports the argument... Or is it just coz it's Mr Pateman again?
Andy
"Andy Sollis- Churnet Valley model Railway Dept." wrote
I'll try Andy. Despite what is claimed in some of the recent magazine issues, none of the Voyagers we've had from Bachmann in the immediate past are fitted with DCC sockets.
John.
"Andy Sollis- Churnet Valley model Railway Dept." wrote
Our Bachmann rep was trying to sell these sets on the basis that they were splitable. As far as I can recall the DCC fitted locos are only available in sets, but I for one don't see them as being particularly likely to attract new entrants to the hobby.
They are, other than the class 25 in the new sets.
I'm at a loss to understand where Bachmann are at with this set.
John.
John Turner wrote:-
As opposed to to Simon Kohler and his 'live steam' fiasco you mean?
(kim)
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