Heljan Class 58 model

Ben C wrote:


Because if Heljan announced their intention based on the assumption that these classes were no longer being offered by LIma, they are likely to reconsider if they suddenly become available again.
(kim)
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On 19 Oct 2004 02:45:02 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (kim) wrote:

Well, that didn't stop them producing Class 47 a few years ago when Hornby and Lima ones were about, Hymeks and Westerns are still being made by Hornby yet Heljan were happy enough to make some more.
I don't consider Lima 33s etc serious competition for a Heljan model.
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Ben C wrote:

Have you seen the Tri-ang/Hornby Hymek? It's a little past it's prime!

The Lima body on a modern mechanism would be serious lower cost competition.
Regards, Greg.P.
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"kim" wrote

these
reconsider if

Fight quality with crap; is that what you're saying?
Hornby tried that for year on year with Bachmann, but in the end realised that if they were to compete it had to be with a quality product.
John.
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John Turner wrote:-

It's called "the squeeze". You flood the market with cut price alternatives just long enough to put a smaller rival out of business.

That didn't stop them countering Heljan with a revamped Class 47 and Hymek and it wouldn't surprise me if they now resurrect the old Western.
(kim)
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"kim" wrote

and
The bloody things don't sell though - I've got a shop full of relatively expensive cr#p. Won't be ordering stuff like the Hornby 47 again.
John.
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On 19 Oct 2004 14:30:04 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (kim) wrote:

'Revamped' lol! Very funny.
What've they done to them? Modified the Ringfield motor to five pole, added sprung buffers. The rest of it is still the same old crap.
A quick scout about on the web tells me that retailers are asking anywhere between 40 to 48 for the 47 and around 43-45 for the Hymek. Nearly half the price of the Heljan equivalent, but nowhere near half as good.
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Ben C wrote:-

Yet according to Simon Kohler there is still a steady demand for his Cl 47 not least of which from those wishing to use it on tight radius curves. If anything the Hornby version will have benefitted from the publicity surrounding the launch of the Heljan model. I suspect the market for the Cl 47 is big enough to sustain a version from all three manufacturers. Personally I prefer the Heljan for its illuminated headcode. Don't forget that many people fit a second drive bogie to Hornbies in order to improve the running characteristics. Ultrascale even make special packs of wheels just for them.
(kim)
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On 19 Oct 2004 18:41:37 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (kim) wrote:

My HJ 47s will get round second radius curves no problem. They have traversed 1st radius in my old fiddle yard arrangement but at low speed, about a scale 30mph.

I want something that runs properly out of the box without modification. Yes I had to tweak the pickups on my first Heljan 47 (47778 from the first batch) but those purchased since have been fine.
I've only ever taken the bodies off Bachmann and Heljan locomotives for two reasons: - removing glazing and other details prior to painting/varnishing - pure noseyness, normally if its the first of a particular type of model
Nothing mechanical has gone wrong with them yet.
My last Hornby and Lima locos spent way too much time on my workbench rather than actually running. I don't want this from my models.
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"Me Too"... That's why I buy Bachmann locos. Not becuase they are 100% accurate, but becuase they run well out of the box and require almost zero maintenance. The same I'm sure will be the case for the Hornby 50 and Heljan 47. Personally, I would only consider the older Hornby models ("revamped" or not) in cases where I really wanted a particular class and there was no alternative. The same is true of Lima. I have a Lima 87 and a Hornby 90, neither is available elsewhere so I am stuck with sub-standard motor-bogies. I'd much rather have a central can motor/flywheel chassis - that's the primary concern to me, not the level of detail or accuracy. Of course, I'd prefer more accuracy and detail, but that is of secondary importance.
Put another way, if I could have bought the Hornby 47 with a Bachmann chassis for 50ish, Heljan probably wouldn't have seen any of my money yet.
I know this is just my view, but I'd suggest that it's the chassis, not the old tooling which stops people buying Hornby 47s and I'm sure Heljan are very happy that the people at Margate haven't upgraded the internals.
Adrian
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Adrian wrote:-

IIRC both these models often have bits falling off or missing if bought by mail order. That is why I would pay a local dealer the full RRP for the Hornby. Unfortunately I don't have that option with Heljan.

I don't think that's possible due to the centre screw fixing? It would help if Hornby's were available straight from the box with a choice of one, two or no driven bogies.
(kim)
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mail
Since my first purchase from Hattons, I have only bought one loco by mail order - and that was because I had money in a PayPal account to spend. My local shop is thankfully very good and does sell Heljan. Better still, since I am now considered a regular, I get an extra discount which gets the prices quite close to mail-order levels and often better since P&P is avoided. Even if I am paying a little more, it's be worth it to see the things before I buy and actually browse a real shop.

help if

no
I'd agree, but sadly the 2-power-bogies solution is rather expensive is still far from ideal.
Adrian
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"Adrian" wrote

Aye, add around 20 for a second power bogie to the typical RRP of 54.00 for a Hornby diesel or electric model and suddenly they are way above the price of a Bachmann diesel - and nowhere near as good!
John.
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"kim" wrote

not
He would say that wouldn't he. As I've said elsewhere in this thread we made a conscious decision to carry the Hornby 47 in stock this year, but it has not sold at all, so we will clearly not be repeating the orders we placed. I wonder how many other retailers have found the same.
John.
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Did you get them on "sale or return"?
--
John Sullivan
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"John Sullivan" wrote

I wish! All model railway stuff is generally *firm sale*.
John.
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My guess is you're looking at a minimum of GBP100-150K to tool a new model, but a guaranteed initial sale (as in the case of the class 58) will go significantly towards offsetting that cost.
In my days in the model shop trade, we used to talk with Corgi and EFE reference their model buses (My old boss was a bus nut) as to liveries etc that could be produced from each casting...
I never knew how much they cost, but the story goes that they never broke even on the costs of tooling up or a NEW casting until the second model livery sold out (that's sold TO the traders, NOT off the traders shelves). The other bit I'm unsure of was how many was in each run.... I suspect that once tooled to do 58001 for the Class 58 group that they will follow it up with a second in another livery. Now 58050 with name plates and in sector grey, I would put my hand in my pocket for!
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On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 21:12:59 +0100, "Andy Sollis- Churnet Valley

I'm beginning to think that 'tooling costs' are the model railway equivalent of the fisherman's 'one that got away'.
I've read so much over the years about the things, and so many people are this close -><- to knowing how much the tooling costs for a model railway locomotive are.... but I've never once seen a proper quoted figure. :)
Pete
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mutley wrote:

Who do you think would give you the figure? - There would be a figure that the manufacturer would have to find to bring moulds to production readiness. - There would be another total figure for the manufacturer to get the first 1,000 models into the container. - There would be another figure for the importer/wholesaler to get those models safely in his warehouse. - another at the retailer's door. - another one again at the counter.
If you can spread that first figure over 100.000 units rather than 1,000 there will be a much lower counter price.
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On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 16:00:19 +1300, Gregory Procter

The tooling costs are exactly the same regardless of whether a model sells 1, 100, 1000 or 10000. The tooling costs are exactly the same regardless of how much it costs to pack, ship, import or export.
Higher projected sales figures won't make the tooling costs any less, they'll just make the likelihood of something being tooled in the first place a little more likely.
Pete
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