Heljan Class 58 model

I don't quite see how they're having been withdrawn should be a hindrance to providing a model. I would have thought most model railways are set in the past and therefore need stock that is now withdrawn :-)

Matthew

Gregory Procter wrote:-

And have now abandoned the idea (or so I'm told).

Was that an _all-new_ model or a variation of an existing one in the Trix range?

And failed. The original project was a Class 37 in H0 costing £90 and they ended up with a Class 47 in 00 being widely discounted to as little as £75. The H0 society had equally little luck getting a Class 66 made specially for them.

Which are considerably more than the Class 58 group seem to think. Hornby gets letters from people every everyday asking if they would make a special model of their favourite locomotive and that are "willing to pay whatever it costs". When it is pointed out to them that the tooling alone costs as much as two average houses they suddenly decline.

(kim)

There are some 58s in foreign parts now. Though models would be 0.5 mm per foot too big for most modellers there.

Maybe Britain should convert to HO (AF creeps back under his bridge, to sit back and watch the fun)

"kim" wrote

The HO-scale class 37 project was dropped by the HO-scale Society because they could not generate enough interest in the finished product to make its production viable. There would have been no problem in Heljan making it for them.

Anyone could have told the UK HO-scale Society that apart from their handful of members, interest in British outline HO-scale is virtually non-existant.

John.

I thought they had managed to get a loco or two on the market?

It was a new body on an existing chassis.

All they needed was more money/more pre-orders.

It's still possible if you can front up with the money, advertising and distribution channels. That is of course easier if you already run such a business.

Regards, Greg.P.

If they had gone for an A4 or Flying Scotsman then they could have got a lot of people interested in Europe and the US.

John Turner wrote:-

I believe a revised project to produce a Heljan 00-scale Class 37 also fell through before it was switched to a 47?

You've said yourself Heljan's Hymek hasn't sold nearly as well as the 47 (despite its lower price). What makes you think a Dog Bone would sell any better? If I was in a financial position to commission any locomotive (and I'm not) a 58 would not be near the top of my list. I would much rather have some convincing rolling stock to pull behind the existing Hornby example such as a 'Rugby Cement' wagon.

(kim)

Gregory Procter wrote:-

Around four years ago I asked the engineering company which my family owns to investigate the possibility of producing a 'super detail' modern outline diesel for the UK market. We came to the conclusion that the finished model would have to sell for at least £100 in order to be financially viable. Subsequent events have shown that few if any modellers in the UK are willing to pay that kind of money for diesel outline.

(kim)

"kim" wrote

The Hymek was very limited in its sphere of operation, and whilst the class

58 was also limited in some respects they did cover a much larger geographic area throughout their lives from the south coast up as far as Yorkshire and Lancashire and most of what lies between.

Although I have a Heljan Hymek model in my collection of working locos, it would never have figured prominantly on my wants lists - I've got one because they're available and because it's an excellent model. The 'bone' on the other hand falls into my main period of interest and I'd be glad of some decent examples (note plural) to use on my layout. The existing Hornby model is a bad joke.

On the other hand I agree wholeheartedly that some decent freight rolling stock would be *very* welcome, an area which Hornby in particular have sadly neglected. There are TTA tanks due shortly from Bachmann, hopefully followed fairly soon by the promised OBAs. I'd love some Vanwides, HTV hoppers, decent VDAs (not the current thing from the chaps from Margate) and many others too numerous to mention.

John.

Nevertheless super detailed diesel outline models are sitting on the shelves of model shops up and down the country as I type, and they cost less than a hundred quid.

To get back to the Heljan class 58. We already know that the figures quoted are 1000 models to be produced, and an expected selling price of

90 quid. Which by my crappy maths gives an indication that Heljan want 90 grand to produce the model.

I would expect that price to include profit to both Heljan and the Cl58G.

Pete

"mutley" wrote

Doubt it somehow. 90 x GBP1000 is only GBP90,000 though the retailers till. Knock of VAT and the retailers margin, shipping costs from Denmark and other materials and you're probably down to GBP45K in the bank for Heljan. No way will that cover production costs, but what it would do is give them a set of tools which they can then use for further production assuming the commissioning organisation do not order further models.

My guess is you're looking at a minimum of GBP100-150K to tool a new model, but a guaranteed initial sale (as in the case of the class 58) will go significantly towards offsetting that cost.

John.

hmm I agree with all you say, and your understanding is far better than mine that's for sure :)

Pete

Mutley moocow wrote:-

'Detailing kits' for these so-called 'super detail' models are also sitting on the shelves of model shops up and down the country. If they are that good, how is it they still need detailing? Incidentally, Heljan's Class 47 costs £100 + VAT in Denmark and Denmark has one of the highest rates of VAT in Europe.

(kim)

Has anyone from Heljan confirmed they would produce a Class 58 if they receive

1,000 pre-orders or is this just wishful thinking on the part of the Class 58 Group?

(kim)

"John Turner" wrote My guess is you're looking at a minimum of GBP100-150K to tool a new model, but a guaranteed initial sale (as in the case of the class 58) will go significantly towards offsetting that cost.

In my days in the model shop trade, we used to talk with Corgi and EFE reference their model buses (My old boss was a bus nut) as to liveries etc that could be produced from each casting...

I never knew how much they cost, but the story goes that they never broke even on the costs of tooling up or a NEW casting until the second model livery sold out (that's sold TO the traders, NOT off the traders shelves). The other bit I'm unsure of was how many was in each run.... I suspect that once tooled to do 58001 for the Class 58 group that they will follow it up with a second in another livery. Now 58050 with name plates and in sector grey, I would put my hand in my pocket for!

I'm beginning to think that 'tooling costs' are the model railway equivalent of the fisherman's 'one that got away'.

I've read so much over the years about the things, and so many people are this close ->

Andy Sollis wrote:-

An article in Meccano Magazine circa 1967 claimed that the die used to cast a Dinky car cost £10,000 to make. In those days you could buy a family house for £5,000.

(kim)

Sounds like you did your homework properly. I've reached similar conclusions for the NZ market.

Who do you think would give you the figure?

- There would be a figure that the manufacturer would have to find to bring moulds to production readiness.

- There would be another total figure for the manufacturer to get the first

1,000 models into the container.

- There would be another figure for the importer/wholesaler to get those models safely in his warehouse.

- another at the retailer's door.

- another one again at the counter.

If you can spread that first figure over 100.000 units rather than 1,000 there will be a much lower counter price.