Hehe, sorry, didn't make myself clear enough. I was thinking along the lines of manually holding the coaches closer as they went round the track, which is of course impossible (unless one happens to be an octopus with very very long tentacles! ;-)
As for the colour, I'm not perturbed by it. Looks fine to me, but it must be said I have no memory of the colour in use in revenue earning service. I'm toooo young... ;-) But going by pictures and what I've seen at preserved lines, plus using the comparison to Bachmann's BR Maroon, it doesn't look out of place to me at all....
Rather reminds me of the much reported, and photographed, Derby Etches Park heavily faded Maroon set which was used for the 'Jolly Fisherman' Skegness summer workings of the early 80's. Invariably hauled by a pair of Class 20's, driven 'flat out' by the erstwhile 'Derby Chopper Squad'!
30 years exposure to daylight for your Bachmann Mk1's might produce a similar hue :)
Regarding my earlier comment that BS Maroon could look almost black on a model coach, withdraw that! Now looking at the colour chip through a mask, which I didn't have at the earlier time, it certainly stays reddish, but still pretty dark under diffused skylight, but in bright sun, which I suppose is the lighting condition which we reckon to have on our layouts, its a quite dark red. Regards, Bill.
The 'maroon' is a darkish red, but nowhere near to looking black. Even on the far side of the world you should not find it to hard to find photographic references to look at, there are many, both in books and on the web. eg
The colour was chosen in 1956 to match the former LMS (ex Midland) colour which they called 'Crimson Lake' bur reportedly BR called it Maroon as that was the nearest reference in BS 381C. The 'Crimson' in the 1949 Crimson and Cream livery was matched to colour 540 in the BS. Keith
This is the best colour image I've got of a coach in BR maroon, and although it's technically a 'preserved example' it was repainted in one of the BR workshops and is/was part of the NRM collection (although I believe it has subsequently been threatened with scrap because of asbestos content - maybe someone can confirm) and it's certainly very close to what I remember as BR maroon.
What it does show is a distinctive red pigmnetation and also suggests that Hornby may also be understating the lining on the BR version of their Stanier coaches.
No quarrel with the colour there John, but the link I gave is closer to a real in service Mk1. The griddle car is bulled up far more than any service coach ever was, and I think the lining on that is overstated comparing to the pictures in the HMRS Mk1 book. The lining is also slightly out of position, it should be closer to the windows although this did vary slightly with the type of window frames, and the lettering and numbers are wrongly positioned, more typical of the blue/grey livery, on maroon vehicles the lettering and numbers were normally closer to the waist lining, well above the mid position that they have been put on the griddle car. Keith
I had a look at one of Hornby's offerings in Mike's (C&M) shop in Carlisle today. Oh dear! The lining is definitely wrong - it looks both a little too fine, and the 'yellow' is metallic 'Gold' - *wrong*.
The correct lining and lettering colour is 'Golden Ochre' (a mix of white and yellow ochre pigments) as on the example photo above, which Bachmann have got just about right on their models.
The Hornby maroon looks slightly on the light side, and it should be more glossy, which would probably darken it to the right shade.
All the best,
Iain
'You need to be very careful when drawing up a specification, otherwise you risk getting what you ask for rather than what you want.'
LOL - I've seen suggestion that these near £30 coaches can be improved by:-
a) dismantling and removing the glue-in glazing b) carefully scraping away the excess of white glue visible on many coaches c) painting the edge of the glazing black to eliminate the prismatic effect d) remove and replace the corridor connections to allow a non-retracted version to be fitted to allow closer coupling e) change the close coupling drawgear for a system which actually works f) redo the lining to correct thickness and colour g) either repaint or apply varnish to correct the inappropriate finish &/or colour
apart from those minor points the coaches are superb!
Another problem is working on computers, you have to set up the monitor properly to view colours correctly and this should be a CRT rather than a flat panel - I am currently having to work on a laptop, its a decent spec IBM but because it is intended for business use it has a very high contrast screen but colours show on screen light and slightly colour shifted - I got a look at the sketches I have been working on on a proper CRT monitor and greens which look pretty much the same on my machine are actually a range from light apple green to some that are close to BR diesel green and everything is much darker than I see it. I will have to re-do all the drawings once I get a place set up.
Keith, in re looking at photos to determine the shade of B.R. Maroon, this would be a pretty dicey project, I wouldn't trust any colour shot to give the correct shade, there are too many variables in the whole process from camera to printed page. And you must admit that B.S. 541 Maroon is the darkest of all the 'Reds' in that standard, even if not 'Almost black'. An interesting comment that BR 1949 Crimson was B.S. No.540. But was the 'cream' a B.S. colour? There is certainly no colour called 'Cream' in the Standard, but there is a 'Pale Cream', No.352 and a 'Deep Cream', No.353. Regards, Bill.
Keith" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...
On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 19:07:32 +1100, "William Pearce" wrote:
The reference I gave to BS 540 was from Keith Parkins book on the Mark
1 coaches published by the HMRS, there is no numerical reference given for the Cream or the Maroon, the Maroon is just stated to have been matched to the LMS colour and named maroon by reference to the BS. Whether that implies BS 541 I've no idea. If I looked at BS541 I would comment further but I don't have it.
Sure photos cannot be relied on to give the 'correct' shade on their own, and may be very different on your monitor from mine. Beyond that is there such a thing as 'correct' in this regard. You need to specify when the vehicle concerned was painted, in which works, how long has it been running around since, what chemicals have been used in the washing plants its been through, when was it last washed, what time of day and weather conditions were you viewing it in etc etc. All I am concerned about is that the colour on my models looks to me how I remember the real thing. No doubt my memory is another variable, so what. For the 10 years that BR Mk1s were maroon I was either travelling on them or observing them or working with them, I saw some pretty well every day. They did not always look the same, not even in the same train at the same time, so I don't mind some variation in my models either. But I can tell if it strays outside the expected parameters and hence looks wrong to me, same goes for models or photos. Remarkably, amongst the large number of modellers who lived through that era there does seem to nbe general agreement on what the colours were. If you are trying to get this picture from faraway where you never saw them you will have to tap into our experience. Describing a colour in words is pretty futile, hence the reference to photos, you can find a lot more out there, genuine 50s 60s colour photos unfortunately well outnumbered by preservation scenes which may or may not be accurate. You have had our comments on two such pictures, feel free to ask for views on others. Keith
Alright, it's not quite up to Bachmann Mk 1 standards but for 25 quid it is a monumental improvement on anything I could do with a Comet kit. Hornby must be wondering why they bother.
Silly boy, they bother because there are enough people out there who are willing to buy virtually anything which appears in a Hornby box. I've now got three of the Staniers (including a BG) on my layout, but I won't be buying more, even though I'd originally wanted about a dozen.
I wonder why Hornby didn't bother a little bit more - enough to get the basics right in the first place. They'd have been enjoying a bit more of my cash if they had.
That's me told then ! I bought it because I'm trying to recreate southwest Scotland in the 1960s, for which I need Stanier coaches. I bought it because in my "stuff to finish" box are a couple of Comet kits variously needing paint, lining, transfers and twiddly bits adding, which I have been building as and when I get time over the last ten years, and which will eventually form a BSK+CK branch set. For more or less the same money and a couple of hours fitting crew couplings yesterday evening I now have a branch set which looks (apart from bits of white glue around the windows) s**t hot.
I need some for a boat train set too, so I will be buying some more. Probably not off you though.
I don't know how this compares to your BS samples but BS 540 Maroon as it appears on my monitor from this site
is much to dark for BR Maroon.
Looking here instead,
Then BR Maroon, I would put in the following range, between 3003 for the brighter end and 4004 for the darker end of the range, which might give you some idea perhaps. Keith
It seems odd that this is the second lot of coaches where a basic error has been made in the finishing, after the strange grain direction on the Gresley Teaks you would have thought they would have checked such a basic detail this time.
Interesting that, on this shop computer I can't see anything vaguely resembling BR maroon in that colour chart, but on mine with the CRT screen I'd generally go along with what you say.
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