10/10/06: A day that will live in infamy?

You are cracking me up.
And notice that since they just fly Model Rockets, they can ignore all Model Rocket laws and regulations (State Fire Regulations requiring permits, FAA notification,
etc.).
Shread Vector NRA #1 Paramount Leader
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I got news for you, when I moved to Rosamond, the first thing I did was call the county seat up in Bakersfield and asked them what kind of rules they had for the flying of Model Rockets. The answer? ZERO rules, as it's all desert and and they said I could fly what ever I wanted. They even allow airal fireworks to be sold and launched. I've been flying my birds in the field next door until a house was built there, now I go out past 150th ST West to do any flying and I've had cops watch me fly, at the last launch I did a cop came over and ended up flying one himself.
And to add to that, I am working with the local group that's in charge of parks and an Aero Park is being planed along with other parks which the Start of Calif. will be paying for.
It's to bad you didn't go to the launch they held up at the Mojave Spaceport, not only a lot of estes birds, but one company flew a totaly all metal rocket and the local groverment man was the one who allowed it.
It's nice living in an area where we have true freedom and not all the rules of L.A./Orange.
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Starlord wrote:

I think some folks just can't stand the thought that someone, somewhere, might be "getting away" with something that they themselves can't or won't do. Like the self-righteous clods who go out of their way to try to prevent other drivers from exceeding the speed limit.
b
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Ya, The SIAR doesn't say any permits are not needed, if the rocketeer lives where they are, then they get them, here in KERN county they don't care and as such don't have the hardcore rules that L.A. has, and what's funny, I'm just about 1/4 to 1/2 a mile above the LA/KERN county line/ Up here we like to think we've got it better off, when I talked to the folks up in Bakersfield, they asked what the field was next door, it's basicy desert, they say to fly whatever I want. Os, for the last 8.5 years I've flown my birds on land which the trailer park owns and never had any trouble at all, even my night launchs have gone off good. I know one guy who flys his girds in the fields across the street from Willow Springs Race Track and has never been bothered by anyone at all. So I'm very happy to live in KERN, oh ya, I've had firemen stop at the corner where I have my scope set up for sidewalk astronomy duing the fireworks time and all they do is watch the fireworks rockets flying up from near by homes.
And I get to see what's flown around Edwards too. Oh ya, that launch they had at Mojave Spaceport, in last weeks paper, they are looking at making it bigger and have more school kids from Kern and maybe even L.A.county come up and take part in it and those are FLOWN ON THE SPACEPORT itself.
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Fred Shecter wrote:

We don't need no stinking laws and regulations. We got crack.
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"Darrell D. Mobley" wrote:

Yea, and if we could summarily execute every dealer and publicly flog every user, that problem would go away..
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Darrell D. Mobley wrote:

You're not a plumber are You?
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Dave Grayvis wrote:

No, but I still try to keep my pipes cleaned. ;-)
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Darrell D. Mobley wrote:

Sorry, it's just that I've seen a lot of plumbers with crack.
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Paper towel roll centers, stuff like that and he does a find job of doing it too and almost no cost to the school and working with kids who can't help being that way, it's not easy, but he'd done it for at lest 3 or 4 years.
How offen have YOU gone out had helped a class of kids who because their mothers where crask addicts can't sit still very long? At lest he's helpping out the class.
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Starlord wrote:

Well, bully for him. I guess we know who the IAR's dealer is now...
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The IAR is dead and gone.
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Starlord wrote:

As is the 62.5 gm per grain exception (on 10/6)
Why, oh why does anyone think would get better for the hobby.. The original lawsuit was pre-9/11, and the world has changed since then...
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Fred Shecter wrote:

IAR -- we don't need no stinking permits.
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That's funny, no IAR web sites, no mailing list, it died like a rocket without a chute.
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Bob Kaplow wrote:

We DO need to hear from the national bodies on this but unfortunately any communication to them is no less than them communicating straight with the defendant in the case. To do so would/could give away the competitive edge they need to maintain in the case.
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Thats the effective date for NPRM 968, correct? The 26.5g propellant limit *exemption* goes into effect.
This changes nothing for motors larger than 62.5 grams. The status of those varies depending on who you ask.
wow, he signed his real name.
Glen Overby
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shockwaveriderz wrote:

I expect that many/all will simply go on doing what they have been doing. But they will not be able to buy anything else without a user permit (there is no such thing as an LEUP) so the "problem" will gradually vanish.

They are required to have a signed copy of your permit and a statement of intended use. 27 CFR 555.103

Why should it be required? They haven't required it in the past nor have they required that you prove that you signed a form 5400.? which was required for purchase by non-permittees prior to 2003.
It is the ATF's job to enforce the ATF's regulations, not the NAR, TRA, you, or me.
Hell, if an ATF agent approached you at a launch and asked/demanded to see your permit, you could tell them to piss off. (Best to be polite at first.) There is nothing in the explosives law, regulations, or in the law describing the powers of ATF agents (18 USC 3051) that says they can demand to see a permit or that you have to produce it on demand. The only requirement for display of a permit is that it be displayed at the licensed premises.

Why should there be any? Are you also going to have the NAR/TRA verify that you have liability insurance for the car you drove to the launch? A drivers license? Where will you stop?

The black helicopters will be right behind them. :-)

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David Schultz wrote:

OK, so now you've jogged my memory, and I've got some further questions (especially since you seem to be the 'guru' of this subject).
I just went to the ATF website, and downloaded what APPEARED to be the form to request a permit. You indicate (and I seem to recall some discussion about) the fact that there is not a LEUP anymore -- but the form appears to reference a LEUP. What, exactly, is one supposed to apply for these days? If one isn't supposed to get a LEUP, does that mean one has to conform to some HIGHER standard, such as for HE? What additional requirements are there?
I'm in California, and it appears that I would need to get a Cal Pyro 3 license before getting the LEUP (or equivalent). It also appears that another early step is to get local AHJ approval for storage. The permit information for BATFE says to allow 90 days, but doesn't say what happens if more than 90 days passes before they approve it. There is also reference to a fingerprint card -- is this available/done by my local police, or is there a 'special' fingerprint card that is needed by BATFE?
I'm going to attempt the process, and for the record, I do not currently possess any motors that I'm not allowed to have, but have recently acquired a property that WILL work for storage, so I figure this is as good a time as any to go through the process...
Any words of advice are appreciated...
David Erbas-White
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David Erbas-White wrote:

I am not a guru, but I do know more about it than I really care to. :-)
I used to be fairly ignorant about the regulations. But one day in 2003 I did my normal if fairly infrequent search of the Federal Regiater for postings by the ATF. I happened to do this the day NPRM 968 was published. As a result I now subscribe to the Federal Register daily table of contents and have read far more than I ever wanted to.

The ATF is being its usual abysmally slow self. While this change took effect last year, they haven't updated the forms. Some information including links to ATF stuff is at http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz/regulation/marking.html
Also read the last Explosives Newsletter, where it says:
"Licensees and permittees are currently required to identify the class of explosive materials involved in their business or operations (e.g., black powder to dynamite) on their applications, renewals, or amended applications. While ATF will continue to obtain this information during the application process, as of July 26, 2005, the information will no longer be used to designate licenses or permits by class of explosive materials. Licensees or permittees will receive a Manufacturer of Explosives License Importer of Explosives License, Dealer of Explosives License, User of Explosives Permit, or a Limited Permit, without the designation of High, Low, Blasting Agents, etc. The final rule on this change can be found in the Federal Register, Volume 70, Number 102, Docket Number ATF 5F. The reason for this change is to provide greater flexibility to the explosives industry in terms of the classes of explosive materials involved in their businesses."
I assume that this means you should check the type 34, User of Low Explosives, box.
The permit application and renewal forms are currently under review by the OMB. Did the ATF make any changes? Unlikely, since the OMB web page says: "Extension without change of a currently approved collection". I tried to make a comment on the renewal form but my requests for a copy of the form, submitted in accordance with the directions in the Federal Register notice, went unanswered. So I sent in a comment anyway noting this fact.

The law, 18 USC 843(c), requires that the ATF take action within 90 days of receiving the application. Alas, there are no penalties if they fail. But you can try what I did which is a letter to a congressman/senator. My letter to Senator Cornyn stirred things up nicely as they seemed to be falling over themselves trying to get it done. http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz/regulation/renewal.html
The ATF requires a specific fingerprint card but you are on your own as far as getting it completed. I did it at my local police office for a nominal fee. It appears that so many background checks are required these days that it is quite an operation.
Here is what the ATF web site says in the Safe Explosives Act page about applications:
"Effective immediately, please be advised that in order to apply for a Federal explosives license/permit (FEL), you MUST contact the National Explosives Licensing Center (NELC) at (404) 417-2750."

If the ATF is still using the questionnaire that they used during my renewal, tell them you will not go along with an unapproved information collection. They ATF is required by law to get all information collections approved by the OMB, display the OMB number on the form, prohibited from using an unapproved collection, and prohibited from taking adverse action if you refuse to go along with an unapproved collection.

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