Means have an adverse event get caught and get into trouble when it is
they didn't notify.
YOU IDIOT. I'm not doing it. I only called the rule to question.
I fly out of a waivered field. I note that my 530 gm model and my
Super Big Bertha at 750gms. fly to 900' and 1300' respectively. Seems
like the rule is a nuisance for the 453gm to 1.5kg models.
Oh my gosh! :) My apologies oh holy one. :) (tongue in cheek no offense
meant.) I apologize for my utopian ideals!
I still think it would be nice to not have to notify for below 1.5kgs.
and G impluse. Would be a good rule change if it could be had.
I'm but a poor misguided infidel, who like thyself unwittingly spoke a
blasphemy against the True Religion. I now know that it is a sin of the
highest order to question the noble purpose of Holy Regs.
Actually, if you live east of the Rocky mountains, and farther then 25 miles
from a major airport, like ORD, LAX, DTW etc,
5 miles away from smaller airports,
uncontrolled airspace exists below 1200 you can fly in.
mini mag on a Big "G" ?
Unmaned rockets are not allowed to fly in controlled airspace.
now, I;ve heard rumor from Manned Helicopter pilots that large amounts of
Class "G" airspace, uncontolled exist
west of the Rockies in the desert areas, with uncontolled airspace from 1200
to up to 10K at places.
Now , just to find a map of them would be really neat.
You will not find Class G airspace marked explicitly. It is instead
marked by omission or inference.
For example, go here: http://skyvector.com/ and select the Klamath Falls
sectional chart. Dig around until you find the Black Rock Desert. To the
southeast is marked airway V113. If you check out the key on the side of
the map you will see that it is boardered by a symbol that means:
"Class E airspace with floor 1200 ft. or greater above surface that
abuts Class G airspace."
So it would appear that the Black Rock flying site is in uncontrolled
airspace. Sort of. Class E airspace starts at 14,500' everywhere. But I
wouldn't bet that this was uncontrolled airspace. I would ask the FAA.
In my neck of the woods, (DFW) all airways are marked by a different
symbol so I must assume that everything from 1200' up is class E
airspace unless disignated to be something even more restrictive.
I also found a document that the FAA publishes once a year,
http://www.faa.gov/ATPubs/7400.9/7400.9.pdf and it says:
"Airspace not assigned in Subpart A, B, C, D, E, or H of this order is
uncontrolled airspace and is designated as Class G airspace. There is no
airspace within the United States designated as Class F."
This document also lists all airspace designations. But I wouldn't want
to try and figure out what chunk of airspace is uncontrolled.
David W. Schultz
Yep, that looks right to me. The direction of the shading indicates the
airspace that is the class E.
Explains the symbols that skyvector leaves out, that are in the legend of a
Also look out for those grey/black lines that say IR### or VR### those are
high speed military training routes. 4digit numbers indicate activity at
and below 1500 AGL and 3 digit or fewer numbers indicate activity above 1500
This site http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/airspace.htm gives an overview of
the airspace classifications.
Thanks David, that is a nice website I had not found yet.
Really good for me.
Late last night I found a document that showed the symbol for 14,500 class E
It was the dark greenish-brown transparent lines that are fuzzy on one side
of the line and razor sharp edges on the other side of the line.
Similar to the Purple transparent lines that are fuzzy on both sides.
Sometimes the space is lower then 14,500 and it's marked.
I looked at your block rock example and they are all around with markings
inside like 11,500 MSL, 9,500 MSL etc..
I wonder how much more of the west and deserts have these areas.
Like you said, once you think you found a place to fly uncontrolled, a call
to the FAA would be prudent to make sure
the place you think is uncontrolled really is and that you didn't read it
I think those are actually supposed to be blue shaded lines and the class G
airspace is on the sharp side, class E starting at 1200 AGL on the fuzzy
The lines that look like a privacy fence, show an alternate floor to the
class E airspace along the airway, but those numbers are MSL or Mean Sea
Level, not AGL, or Above Ground Level. The spots you mention are right over
or near a "mountain" and the ground is rather high there. If you do the
math, it works out to about 1500 AGL at the highest points in those areas.
It looks like the terrain in that area varies widely from about 4500 ft to
as much as 10,000.
Anyways, the airspace on the sharp side of the blue shaded line should be
class G up to 14,499 feet MSL. I too would confirm this with the local
Your Apogee Aspire on an F10 or G80 is still a model rocket, and doesn't
require notification. Once, when NIRA was denied a waiver on the field where
we hosted NARAM-33 (by a municipal airport, NOT ORD), I calculated that
without needing a waiver a 113g propellant single use H motor could reach
about 8000', yet DPA was refusing to allow waivered flights to 1700'! We
flew anyway, but ony to the MR limits. BTW, this was a couple years before
we finally got FAR 101.22, which would have let us go to 125/1500g instead
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf
You are correct, but they explained their logic in great detail when
the final rules were released. they really want the notification for
that range of models.
Perhaps after a sane number of decades there would be a good reason to
revise it (i.e.simplify)?
I would suggest asking the NAR folks who are on the committees that
deal with these regulations. They will have the best information.
Under 16 ounces, no notification. 1 lb to 3.3 lb = notification. Larger
than 3.3 lbs = waiver. This really is all anyone needs to know. It isn't
very complicated. However we have had some confusion when we
called for our notification this year. So it seems in some cases, there
are clueless people in positions that should have educated them to
know the rules much better. It is unbelievable. So I am not surprised
people are getting the run-around.
> with notification. Well heck don't have a less than a nominal flight or
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 21:46:11 GMT, "shockwaveriderz"
You should follow the regs. Nothing more - nothing less. If you are
in a situation where all you have to do is notify, then just do that.
Although well intentioned, I think that doing anything more can set an
undesired precedent. The rules are black and white. Everyone is
subject to the same rules and I don't see how rules as specific as
101.1would be subject to any difference in intrepretation.
If at all possible, I'd try to meet with the airport manager and make
peace with him. You will be in a far better position in the future if
you have a good relationship with him.
With the IFR situation you describe, I would make damn sure that I
don't launch anything into a cloud. Especially on cloudy / overcast
Lastly, I hope things don't get to this point but if the FAA guys drag
their feet on giving you waivers or whatever, you can always make a
call to DC. Hopefully things won't get to that point.
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 21:46:11 GMT, "shockwaveriderz"
Yeah, I'd have to agree with the other followups to your post to do
exactly what's required by regs/law -- nothing more, nothing less.
We're (MTMA) very lucky in that at KCLE FAA center we have very good,
informed, and responsive folks to handle our NOTAMS, and waivers.
Never had a single problem with any of our launches...
However, I'm sure there are other places in this country that have
"less than standard" persons in those same positions.
"It's always easier to apologize than to ask permission."
-- Grace Hopper, and many, many, others...
ok I'm ging to follow everybodies advice and withdraw the FAA waiver request
tomorow when the FAA guy calls me back and just go with model rocket and LMR
regulations as far as notification is concerned. Perhaps I will also invite
the ATC manager guy to consider coming out and observing a launch to see how
safety conscious we actually are.
I am convinced that when we call in our waiver to lauch rockets that people
in cessan's show up to watch whats going on....I mean, there usually isn't
any aircraft trafic in a certain place and you issue a notam and all of the
sudden you got of these small aircraft in the airspace.... maybe its
And not we usually only have lauches on clear blue skies so that
visiability is at a maximum.
thanks for your comments
I have $20 that says there is no way in hell he shows. We offered the same
to our local airport personal. No f-ing way... They would have to admit
everything was cool. And there is no way they would do that. Anyway
good luck on that.
In Taiwan people are usually very noncompliant. They have the attitude of
whatever they can get away with... If there were model/HPR activities I can
bet 80% of them wouldnt bother with any sort of notification or waviers.
Hell people shoot off 3 inch shells all the time and you're talking half a
pound of explosive projectile.. thats got to be more dangerous than
rockets... even though they are technically illegal no one seems to care
(motorcycles always run red lights... dont ask me why)
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