FAA Waiver question

How do they clear airspace of VFR traffic? How do they confirm the airspace is clear without primary radar?

Or

It's a - know - restriction, you have to... know how.

; )

Randy

It has come to my attention that once again, some folks are jumping to conclusions. So let me clarify something: I am not advocating that anyone launch LMR or high power without notifications or waivers. I'm simply pointing out certain facts.

It is a fact that LMR notifications have nothing to do with safety. It is a fact that anyone can build and fly a LMR without ever even being aware that FAA notification is required -- therefore it can be safely assumed that many people can and do fly LMR without notification. It is also a fact that waivers for high power rockets have very little to do with safety, and it is a fact that the safety of the flight is entirely up to the person or persons conducting the launch.

Those are the facts, and they are true regardless of anyone's emotions on the subject.

=BF

Hey Ray:

You seem to be one of the one's that "simply don't bother". Why don't you bother? Not bothering is against the safety code of the organization(TRA) that you are a member of! Maybe your just a hypocrite. Do you have copys of your past launch permits(waivers)? Since you fly I motors(or greater) don't you need them? Where can i get copys?

Just Jeff (former tra 5903) snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net

Sure, that may be your experience, but the guys I fly with are not perps causing incidents. ;)

The Bush administration, HS, post 9/11 hysteria, Chicken Little...

Heh, heh, heh. I could drive 120 MPH safely, and argue to the judge that I was not driving too fast for conditions..., but with a posted speed limit it is a slam dunk conviction. When you and your perps have an incident, and it is revealed that you were flying LMR without required notification, the case against you is more easily made. No judge is going to buy your ignorance of the law argument.

Interesting, I think smaller aircraft that fly at lower altitudes (unpressurized, no oxygen, no turbo/supercharger) are more vulnerable Than larger aircraft that fly above 10,000 feet. An ultra light at

Sure it's easy to spot. But I've also seen launches where someone has to point out an approaching aircraft to the RSO. Incidents happen. The waiver makes the investigation easier for the FAA and investigating agencies.

I agree that a waiver does not ensure or increase safety. However, I also think that when you apply for a waiver, you will behave more safely and responsibly, and that behavior will increase safety.

Sure, except that the data accumulates, pasterns change, and even names change.

Just fax in the notification so you do not have to confront them.

Don't think of notification as an inconvenience, think of it as a curtesy. You can not use most HPR launch sites without the curtesy of notification either, at least not for very long. I don't mind notification, if that keeps them happy. Still, if we jam up their fax machines with notifications maybe they will decide that they are happier without notification. I'd be inclined to have more notifications, at the cost of fewer waivers. I don't even find waivers to be too burdensome, so long as they are approved without difficulty. That brings us back to FAA personnel training, and possible new limits that the FAA may decide on as being in the best interests of all users of the airspace rather than just what sport rocketeers think is best for rocketry.

Alan

TRA #5903 belonged to someone named Roxy Granzow. Did you change your name as well as your gender?

Doesn't make it right.

Speeding with no other cars around is also safe. However that doesn't make it right.

Really. When we have had wiavers active we did not even see birds in the air. Seems pretty safe to me as there were no aircraft around until the waive was over. But hey you know better.

Fascinating stuff here.

OK thanks for clearing that up. In my case, I had some yeahoo flying over my field when we had a waiver. I caller ORD and they made sure the single engine perp was leaving the area. But hey, you know all about this much better than I do apparently. So good for you.

Yeah good question.

Are the F10 or G80 rockets over 1 pound in weight? I figured they mostly were.

As I recall you are a TRA guy and not NAR, so forget what I said. I mispoke.

I don't think so.

Thank god, we finally agree on something :-) Cheers!

Really!!! oh oh oh Mr BIG TIME EXPERT!!!!

I happen to know they will clear the airspace when the waiver is only 5250ft. This would be because I have seen it done at one of my sections launches. But hey you are the big timer expert.

So whatever. You are awesome.

Yeah. Facts as you understand them. Which is not necessarily the same facts that others may have actually experienced. But forget that you know better.

Well I 'm sure there are exceptions to everything. Where was that launch? Out here in the southwest, the FAA does not generally clear the airspace for a launch. We routinely have to hold for aircraft. You don't have to take my word though, you can ask the FAA.

I never said it did.

Again, I never said it did. I will however state that the mere fact of something being illegal does not automatically make it wrong. The law is not the arbitor of morality. There are plenty of things which are legal yet morally wrong, and there are also things which are illegal yet morally right. And there are probably things which are illegal yet morally neutral.

If you had no aircraft, it was a coincidence, and an unusual one at that. Every launch I've ever attended had aircraft passing over the site, resulting in holds.

Actually, I'm both TRA and NAR.

Yick...

triploid

adj : of a cell or organism having three complete sets of chromosomes; "human triploid fetuses are usually spontaneously aborted"

tah

Those are what you think the facts are. Its you opinion - not fact.

If you are so sure of this, why don't you present your opinions to the FAA and ask to have the REGS changed.

I've seen a notice in every Aerotech LMR kit specifically pointing this out. And I'm pretty sure the motors are similarly marked in the instructions.

So I don't think you've got a leg to stand on here. It certainly doesn't justify any time you may have launched LMR or HPR without notification or a waiver as appropriate.

Bob, not everyone buys AT kits or motors, and of those who do, I bet they don't all read every bit of the instructions. Someone could scratchbuild a rocket with a cluster of Estes D motors and end up over the 1 pound limit, without ever knowing that they need to notify FAA to fly it. Sticking your head in the sand and pretending that everyone, everywhere, always knows and abides by these regulations is pure foolishness.

Is _everyone_ on this forum devoid of the ability to reason?? NOTHING in what I said can in any way, shape or form be construed as condoning, advocating or admitting to violating the regs. It's simple statement of fact, and is no different than saying that the ATF's demands are also useless and unrelated to safety.

=FF

Hmmm.

They are in FAR 101 for a reason.

Clearly IYHO everyone but you.

What waiver of yours does that other guy keep asking about?

Riddle me this ?

Unmanned Rockets, the true definition.

you have a 15 pound unmanned rocket, you plan to fly it to 5678 feet at

On November 10th, you call and tell the FAA just where and when this unmanned rocket will be flown and request a NOTAM.

Or you tell them you will fly 7 rockets and the weight of each and the time of each.

If you look at what your waiving in a waiver, your waiving the need to NOTAM exact details of a rocket flight with a blanket waiver for all during an extended window.

So this must also mean that if your not wavered, you can, 24-48 hours in advance, announce the exactness of your intentions as well.