FAA Waiver question



One thing I think may be confusing the issue is the difference between VFR & IFR flight rules. Air traffic control works primarily with IFR aircraft, except within 3 miles of an airport. A waiver might cause ATC to block an area to IFR aircraft (which usually operate at altitude, or under the direct radar control of ATC as they near an airport), but they are not even going to know if an aircraft operating under VFR is in your area. If you are operating within a TCA (terminal control area) this is a bit different, hence the "permission of the airport manager if within 5 miles..." clause in the notification requirements.
All rocketry operation are under VFR flight rules, far as I can tell :)
Kevin "used to be a controller a looong time ago" OClassen
VFR = visual flight rules IFR = instrument flight rules ^ ^ apples oranges
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Well their radar told them the little crap airplane in question was at 1180ft and traveling at 130 knots. They also assured me the aircraft would not be back. So maybe my perception was because of my conversation with the person at the other end of the phone (in the O'hare tower).
But yes VFR aircraft certainly were a concern for the officials at a local airport 5 miles from our launch site.
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> operating within a TCA (terminal control area) this is a bit different,
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Sorry, I didn't note that OHare was the terminal under discussion. Everything there is under TCA to something like 25 miles, so VFR or not doesn't matter -- all aircraft are under ATC.
Kevin OClassen
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Greg Cisko wrote:

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Fred - I am sure you are correct. What you describe here certainly sounds like the most reasonable explaination.
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> However, more than likely, the tower controller suggested to the pilot,
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Fred seems to be right on with this response. I was just trying to point out that the mistaken notion that you "own" the airspace during a waivered launch is a common misconception. (and could be a dangerous one) The fact that you launch in close proximity to ORD, under the mode C veil (altitude reporting transponders required) and possibly even underlying the class B airspace (formerly known as a TCA, it changed about 7 years ago, Kevin :) ) makes it that most, if not all traffic is under positive control. It is a mistake, however to assume that that translates to all, or even most situations, and that the controlers can or even would "clear the airspace" Have a nice launch!!
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Yeah well it seems in my case it certainly translated into into what I said it did. Is this the same everywhere??? I think I do not care. But please do not pretend to tell me what my circumstances are, especially when I am living them!
You go girl...
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> situations, and that the controlers can or even would "clear the airspace"
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Greg Cisko wrote:

If they are doing that, it is something in addition to the waiver. The waiver itself only grants permission to launch.

Do you care about the FAA? Next time you have them on the phone, ask them whether or not a waiver automatically grants exclusive use of the airspace.
2
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Actually this is the least of my worries.

I have a great relationship with the FAA. Especially the people in DC who are the keepers of the FAR regulations. I think I would have more appropriate topics of discussion for them. Sorry.
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Hi Greg.
I guess this goes to show a few things.
Things are different in different airspaces.
Waivers mean things to different ATCs.
In my waivers, some to 10K, they do NOT clear trafffic, they specify on the back that I must yield to traffic.
My waivers are not in traffic zones, or the hiways you see marked on sectional maps.
I've seen traffic notified at huge lauches to move out during windows above 10 to 25K.
I've never heard of traffic moving for 10k and under.
Are you in a pattern of some kind ?
I guess it's the situaiton cause you so close to ORD and the upside down Wedding cake.
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We HAVE had waivered launches under ORDs class B (TCA) airspace where they DID reroute commercial traffic in and out of ORD around us all weekend.
The only way these days to "own" the air space is to fly on a military base where they do own their air space, or get a TFR to go with your waiver.
--
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf
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Actually, out where Greg and I fly, we're a few steps out, and we do have uncontrolled air space immediately over our head. Air space that gets traffic as VFR aircraft go around ORDs controlled airspace.
We've never had waiver issues with ORD. Our problems many years ago, and Greg's current problems all come from DPA.
--
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf
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THis is exactly what I've got from my contact at ORD and IKK.

Amen, brother!
--
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf
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wrote:

Maybe he can keep the ATC guy on the phone for the whole launch. Then he can always be sure that the airspace is clear.
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How do they clear airspace of VFR traffic? How do they confirm the airspace is clear without primary radar?
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Hey Ray:
You seem to be one of the one's that "simply don't bother". Why don't you bother? Not bothering is against the safety code of the organization(TRA) that you are a member of! Maybe your just a hypocrite. Do you have copys of your past launch permits(waivers)? Since you fly I motors(or greater) don't you need them? Where can i get copys?
Just Jeff (former tra 5903) snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net

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Motoworks wrote:

TRA #5903 belonged to someone named Roxy Granzow. Did you change your name as well as your gender?
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<snip>
Yick...
triploid
adj : of a cell or organism having three complete sets of chromosomes; "human triploid fetuses are usually spontaneously aborted"
<vbg>
tah
--
Tod A. Hilty
Hilty Information Systems
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Doesn't make it right.

Speeding with no other cars around is also safe. However that doesn't make it right.

Really. When we have had wiavers active we did not even see birds in the air. Seems pretty safe to me as there were no aircraft around until the waive was over. But hey you know better.

Fascinating stuff here.

OK thanks for clearing that up. In my case, I had some yeahoo flying over my field when we had a waiver. I caller ORD and they made sure the single engine perp was leaving the area. But hey, you know all about this much better than I do apparently. So good for you.

Yeah good question.

Are the F10 or G80 rockets over 1 pound in weight? I figured they mostly were.

As I recall you are a TRA guy and not NAR, so forget what I said. I mispoke.

I don't think so.

Thank god, we finally agree on something :-) Cheers!
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Greg Cisko wrote:

I never said it did.

Again, I never said it did. I will however state that the mere fact of something being illegal does not automatically make it wrong. The law is not the arbitor of morality. There are plenty of things which are legal yet morally wrong, and there are also things which are illegal yet morally right. And there are probably things which are illegal yet morally neutral.

If you had no aircraft, it was a coincidence, and an unusual one at that. Every launch I've ever attended had aircraft passing over the site, resulting in holds.

Actually, I'm both TRA and NAR.
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