FAA Waiver question

Thanks David, you always are up on rules and I like that.

Some items that are waived on my few waivers are:

101.23(b)

these items are added by my FAA office.

101.25(b)(c)(d)

the 101.23(b) is no flying unmaned rocket in controlled airspace.

now 101.25 says no one shall fly an unmanned rocket (not model rocket, not LMR , it says unmanned rocket) Unless that person gives the FAA ATC facility 24-48 notice prior: (a) names and addresses (b) estimated number of unmanned rockets to be flown (c) extimated size and weight of each rocekt (d) altitude each will be flown to (e) location (f) date& time (g) other info the FAA wants.

Your insight is helpful on this David.

thanks

Hi Greg.

I guess this goes to show a few things.

Things are different in different airspaces.

Waivers mean things to different ATCs.

In my waivers, some to 10K, they do NOT clear trafffic, they specify on the back that I must yield to traffic.

My waivers are not in traffic zones, or the hiways you see marked on sectional maps.

I've seen traffic notified at huge lauches to move out during windows above

10 to 25K.

I've never heard of traffic moving for 10k and under.

Are you in a pattern of some kind ?

I guess it's the situaiton cause you so close to ORD and the upside down Wedding cake.

Actually, if you live east of the Rocky mountains, and farther then 25 miles from a major airport, like ORD, LAX, DTW etc,

5 miles away from smaller airports,

uncontrolled airspace exists below 1200 you can fly in.

mini mag on a Big "G" ?

Unmaned rockets are not allowed to fly in controlled airspace.

now, I;ve heard rumor from Manned Helicopter pilots that large amounts of Class "G" airspace, uncontolled exist west of the Rockies in the desert areas, with uncontolled airspace from 1200 to up to 10K at places.

Now , just to find a map of them would be really neat.

It's funny how so many of the folks insisting that it's easy to get a waiver also insist that an individual flying independently couldn't possibly have had one. Maybe they think the FAA only hands out waivers for dry lakes and sod farms?

BTW, if you're really so concerned about safety, my perfect 20 year record of flying LMR and high power speaks for itself. In fact, my private, unaffiliated launches are far safer than any club launch. At least when I'm flying solo I know I won't risk killing someone in the event of a recovery failure or other anomoly. The biggest real danger in this hobby is club launches with hundreds of inattentive kids, spectators and non-participants.

I've read hundreds of published launch reports and none of them included proof of a waiver. Many don't even mention the word at all.

l

You will not find Class G airspace marked explicitly. It is instead marked by omission or inference.

For example, go here:

and select the Klamath Falls sectional chart. Dig around until you find the Black Rock Desert. To the southeast is marked airway V113. If you check out the key on the side of the map you will see that it is boardered by a symbol that means:

"Class E airspace with floor 1200 ft. or greater above surface that abuts Class G airspace."

So it would appear that the Black Rock flying site is in uncontrolled airspace. Sort of. Class E airspace starts at 14,500' everywhere. But I wouldn't bet that this was uncontrolled airspace. I would ask the FAA.

"Airspace not assigned in Subpart A, B, C, D, E, or H of this order is uncontrolled airspace and is designated as Class G airspace. There is no airspace within the United States designated as Class F."

This document also lists all airspace designations. But I wouldn't want to try and figure out what chunk of airspace is uncontrolled.

Did you have a waiver?

I'll post a copy of mine if you post a copy of yours.

Ray, in speaking from my volunteer capacity for TRA, it is really stupid to fly without a waiver. Period. It violates the rules established by the FAA. In no way was I implying that flying solo was safer than flying at a club launch. I think you are wrong in trying to justifying flying solo with out a waiver is safer than flying at a club launch with a waiver absolves you of having a waiver at all.

The way you tap dance around the issue reminds me of Jerry Irvine tap dancing arond the issue of whether or not he sells rocket motors or owns US Rockets.

Jeff Barnes TRA #2267

Yep, that looks right to me. The direction of the shading indicates the airspace that is the class E.

Explains the symbols that skyvector leaves out, that are in the legend of a paper chart.

Also look out for those grey/black lines that say IR### or VR### those are high speed military training routes. 4digit numbers indicate activity at and below 1500 AGL and 3 digit or fewer numbers indicate activity above 1500 feet AGL

This site

gives an overview of the airspace classifications.

Thanks David, that is a nice website I had not found yet. Really good for me.

Late last night I found a document that showed the symbol for 14,500 class E airspace.

It was the dark greenish-brown transparent lines that are fuzzy on one side of the line and razor sharp edges on the other side of the line.

Similar to the Purple transparent lines that are fuzzy on both sides.

Sometimes the space is lower then 14,500 and it's marked.

I looked at your block rock example and they are all around with markings inside like 11,500 MSL, 9,500 MSL etc..

I wonder how much more of the west and deserts have these areas.

Like you said, once you think you found a place to fly uncontrolled, a call to the FAA would be prudent to make sure the place you think is uncontrolled really is and that you didn't read it wrong.

I think those are actually supposed to be blue shaded lines and the class G airspace is on the sharp side, class E starting at 1200 AGL on the fuzzy side.

The lines that look like a privacy fence, show an alternate floor to the class E airspace along the airway, but those numbers are MSL or Mean Sea Level, not AGL, or Above Ground Level. The spots you mention are right over or near a "mountain" and the ground is rather high there. If you do the math, it works out to about 1500 AGL at the highest points in those areas. It looks like the terrain in that area varies widely from about 4500 ft to as much as 10,000.

Anyways, the airspace on the sharp side of the blue shaded line should be class G up to 14,499 feet MSL. I too would confirm this with the local FAA.

AZ Woody wrote:

Woody, This does not address the question. In fact, it muddles it. Does notification keep aircraft clear of a launch site? The answer is "no", one word. It "may encourage some" pilots from flying in the area, but it clearly does not "eliminate the potential" of aircraft in the area.

Holy Crap!! This is the most cavalier attitude I've seen since shipping motors labeled as "model aircraft parts"!! You could have a waiver, a notam, and permission from the President of the United States of America his-self and it would STILL be your responsibility ("problem", your word) to ensure your rocket did not in any way endanger an aircraft.

steve

Correct! That's what I've been saying all along, and got flamed for it. I guess some rocketeers just don't like having to accept responsibility for the safety of their launch. It's just so much easier for them to say, "Well I got me a notam and/or waiver, so if I hit a plane it's someone else's fault."

So Ray, are you saying that you don't contact the local AHJ? I don't doubt that an individual launching rockets is safer than a group launch, but according to the organizations you belong to, to signed an aggrement to follow their safety code. Do you do that without exception?

I have too! But your Mr.safety, so i asked if you followed you own organizations safety codes. You have not answered yes or no! You just tap dance around. Are you _ever_ going to prove me wrong?

Just Jeff (Former tripoli member) snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net snipped-for-privacy@pacbell.net

Just to play devil's advocate here, there's been quite a bit of discussion over the past couple of years about those 'signed agreements'. IIRC, they read something like 'I agree to conduct my sport rocketry activities by the XXX safety code'. It was explicitly discussed that these agreements are not meant to preclude, for example, 'amateur' rocketry.

Putting my armchair lawyer hat on here, all Ray (or anyone else) has to do is declare himself a business (and in Ray's case, he is in fact selling his rocketry photos), and he's not doing 'sport rocketry', he's doing rocketry as part of a business, and is not violating any 'association' agreements. Whether or not he (or others) have violated any FAA requirements, or BATFE, or DOT, is between those individuals and the government...

David Erbas-White

LOL! Please, please show me anything in my post that said, or even hinted, that I do not contact the local AHJ.

o

Correct. Otherwise, anyone member of TRA/NAR who is involved in an amateur launch, or an ARSA launch, would have to be thrown out of TRA/NAR for violating the codes of those organizations.

Correct again. My private launches are unaffiliated with TRA or NAR, and are nobody's business but my own. That's not to say they are conducted illegally, just that I have no obligation to justify them to anyone other than the appropriate government agencies.

Do you get waivers for those desert launches? Yes or No

Please all knowing master - tell us if you get waivers. Yes or No.

What the heck is a cognito any way? :-)