Sad example of nanny govt damaging our hobby

I scored a Quest 10 rocket pack with the mini rockets at the last Hobby Lobby sale and was displaying it to a 30ish buddy at his home
Friday. He did the usual, "Rockets were great when I was younger, it's amazing how cool things are nowadays. Lets go to the park tomorrow, take the kids, and launch these". Unfortunately, after educating him on the long laundry list of why we couldn't shoot them at his large back yard (city code) the park (city code), the local schools (insurance and liability which I think he still doesn't believe me over) he got this sad look on his face and said gee, it's s shame we can't expose our kids to the great things of our childhood due to the overwhelming stupidity of a few people and a bunch of lawyers (which was funny from him since he works in a law firm).
His kids have a full schedule. They are good kids but they already have that burb stress load. School, Girls scouts, softball, etc. And I got the "girls aren't interested in these things so forget donating them to the scout troop" soccer mom speech. They are the kind that schedule play dates so their kids can coordinate schedules with other burbites. But for that one moment we had a chance to expose multiple people safely to the hobby and it couldn't get done. What really got me was the hausfrau said that the things weren't safe. Her youngest still had this huge scab on her nose from a roller blading accident and the older one had a serious knee injury from softball last season, but rockets are dangerous.
Until NAR starts to spend real time and effort in defeating the entrenched antifun burbites, especially in the parks and schools, the hobby will limp along in the grey zone, with a pitiful membership base fighting with the gov over the upper end of the hobby.
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snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

That's it, blame the NAR. What a crock! You blew a perfectly good opportunity to step up to the plate and educate the "hausfrau".
The NAR does "spend real time and effort in defeating the entrenched antifun burbites". But in this case, it was your turn, not theirs.
I appreciate your frustration with the ignorance of the hausfrau when she said rockets "weren't safe", but Bunny's not gonna come down there and straighten her out - you're gonna have to.
Doug
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With all due respect, via NFPA-1122 they do precisely the opposite.
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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What do you say to the empty headed Luddite zealot snotty? I reeled off safety stats, demonstrated the safety mechanisms, pointed out that her husband engaged in the hobby and had turned out ok. But what I couldn't do is point to anything that would show that it was a safe LEGAL hobby because it's against the law there and no amount of education is going to penetrate through since codes prohibit it in burbia! It's against the law so it must be dangerous is the only defense she needs to mount. And yes it is DAR's, NAR's and all the appeasers faults because instead of focusing on bringing Esteser/Questers into the fold, they are left in the grey semilegal zone and the endless arguments over higher levels of power are the main focus of NAR. That is why there are 5000 NAR members and hundreds of 1000's of rockets sold. Where are the VLP (very low power) outreach? Where is the support for say 1/4A or Quest mini parks? Good grief, a softball field is the right size for Quest minis. NAR should be promoting these mini rockets and having mini only clubs to suck in kids, and to show to the park meanies that properly controlled, rockets can mix with other activities, with less danger than a kicked soccer ball at a sideline spectator from a U17 boys soccer team. DAR has been basically banned to out of Dallas County but if you had mini clubs, NAR could have 5000 members in the DFW area ALONE.
If NAR,Quest, and Estes will all join together to promote VLP, then the hobby grows. But Estes doesn't WANT to bring their customers into the legal realm because they KNOW most of their rockets are launched in gray areas. Like the guy getting $25 fines, Estes knows that most of their products are launched in illegal fashion, just because enforcement is minimal . It would kill the hobby if most of the launchers suddenly had to actually obey the endless regulations that most people have no idea restricts the Estes rocket to.
The soccer mom Nazi is not to be educated with mere facts and truth, they are true believers of the worst sort, the Inquisition and Red Maoists in China are more open minded than these useless baby factories.
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some anon poster wrote: << And yes it is DAR's, NAR's and all the appeasers faults because instead of focusing on bringing Esteser/Questers into the fold, they are left in the grey semilegal zone and the endless arguments over higher levels of power are the main focus of NAR. >>
Ah, now we get down to it -- what we have here is another "screw high power, the NAR should be focused on 1/4A modrocs" rants.
<< It would kill the hobby if most of the launchers suddenly had to actually obey the endless regulations that most people have no idea restricts the Estes rocket to. >>
The fact that most people get by just fine in spite of these regs is why there's no great need to pay much attention to them.
<< The soccer mom Nazi is not to be educated with mere facts and truth >>
Then what makes you think NAR (or anyone else) can do anything about them?
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RayDunakin wrote:

You know, I've never understood this "low power dislikes high power and vice versa" thing. This last launch the smallest motor I used was an "A", the biggest, an "I". And the only reason I haven't launched my Micro Maxx stuff is the launcher/storage for the rocket and motors makes such a neat little package to show to people at demos and such. People tend to find it more amazing that they actually fly than the HP monsters. And when I mention they too now are a "terrorist weapon".............
Chuck
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Well it is simple. NARP00 members = pathetic joke. The core members do good work, but with the sales at Estes/Quest, that number should be much higher. But kids have almost been shut out because all of NAR's efforts have gone to promoting grossly over regulated solutions with a one size fits all approach.
Again, I will ask the simple question, where are the VLP pushes? Maybe if NAR did concentrate on 1/4A/Quest mini (not serious but) you might see the national organization grow and not turn into a moldy clump of pertrification. The hi power whiners can bitch all they want, but NAR at 5000 members is a joke, and the only way to solve it is to expand the base, and HP is not the base and will never BE the base.
So question: Is it better to attempt to cater to the hi power zealots like the previous poster, or should NAR actually attempt to get a bunch of members so it might be effective?
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Anonymous Q. Troll wrote: << But kids have almost been shut out because all of NAR's efforts have gone to promoting grossly over regulated solutions with a one size fits all approach.>>
How are kids being "shut out"? They are welcome at all NAR launches, and NAR launches tend to be more accessible and low-power oriented than TRA launches. As for your claim that NAR's approach is "one size fits all", I'd say it's just the opposite. NAR tries to accomodate all forms of commercial sport rocketry. The only thing they don't do is EX/amateur rocketry.
<< Again, I will ask the simple question, where are the VLP pushes? Maybe if NAR did concentrate on 1/4A/Quest mini (not serious but) you might see the national organization grow...>>
Why kids flying at the lowest end of the hobby want to join a national club? How many kids would rather spend their rocketry money on club dues instead of motors and kits? My guess is, very few kids will ever be willing to join something that is not strictly necessary to their hobby.
<< ...HP is not the base and will never BE the base.>>
Adults with money are the true base, and always will be. Like it or not, the vast majority of adults in rocketry want high power.
<< So question: Is it better to attempt to cater to the hi power zealots like the previous poster, or should NAR actually attempt to get a bunch of members so it might be effective? >>
One could question whether or not NAR should cater to kids who have no real reason to join a national organization. One could also question how effective the NAR would be (politically) if it had a larger membership which consisted mostly of non-voting minors.
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I *believe* he was referring to the regulations that prevent people from launching at the local park or soccer field. Without those, most people are forced to drive some distance to an organized club launch. Kids can't drive, so if they don't have anyone to take them they're SOL...
Eldred
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EldredP wrote:

I understand what you're saying, Eldred, and I don't want to get into a slippery slope argument. Suffice it to say that while there are some parks within walking distance for my kids, they can't fly rockets there.
And even though they can fish and play baseball, soccer, cricket, basketball, tennis and lacrosse there, I still need to drive them to their basketball practices and games, and most of their soccer practices and games. For hockey and indoor soccer they must be driven, too. And piano lessons and play rehearsals as well.
So while it'd be nice for the kids to have everything in walking distance, they can't. Parents have to be involved. The parents set the priorities - piano lessons or rocket flying? Soccer practice or play rehearsal? The parents make the decisions by signing the kids up for only the activities they're willing to drive the kids to.
While the rocketry scene will never be perfect, the resources here in the Dallas-Forth Worth Metroplex are pretty good. If the parent makes it a priority to fly, it's not that hard to accomplish.
Even without the parents driving their kids to Windom, the kids can show some initiative. Reaching out is a two way deal, and just as DARS reaches out, kids can reach back. DARS members would gladly give lifts to kids, but they need to raise their hands - a post to DARS-general (@ yahoo) asking for a ride would be a good start.
We can find excuses. Or we can find solutions.
Doug
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Eldred wrote: << I *believe* he was referring to the regulations that prevent people from launching at the local park or soccer field. >>
Since those are local regs, there's very little that the national org can do about it. If the locals don't like their local regs, the locals can work to change them in their area.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com says...

The AMA works all over the country to provide assistance from the national organization with local items.
Take a look at http://www.ama-cycle.org/legisltn/index.asp
You can see where it is broken down into states, etc. and even if the AMA doesn't get involved, it serves as a clearinghouse for legislative items. They also send email alerts to members, letting them know about potential legislation in their region.
Anyway, some ideas there that might be worth pondering.
--
Tweak

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Tweak wrote:

As does AOPA, USPA, ....

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Not the NAR. They rely on Estes for that.

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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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There is one significant difference between the AMA (and for that matter TRA) and the NAR that is critical when working with schools and other youth groups, or the general public:
AMA insurance requires that EVERYONE who flies a model airplane at an AMA club field be an AMA member. TRA insurance has the same requirement, with the exception of allowing insured NAR members to fly as well.
NAR insurance covers the club and the site owner even with guests who are non members flying. Without this critical coverage, it would end ALL outreach programs.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
We must have faith in our democratic system and our Constitution, and in our ability to protect at the same time both the freedom and the security of all Americans.
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Bob Kaplow wrote:

I nelieve the original poster meant a different AMA: American Motorcyclist Association (not Academy of Model Aeronautics).
-dave w
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Oh, that's different. Never mind :-)
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, except to encourage attendance in Christian churches; or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, except to require prayer in schools; or abridging the freedom of speech, except for those questioning the Bush administration; or of the press, except that not owned by Rupert Murdoch; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, except those protesting pre-emptive wars; and to petition the government for a redress of grievance, except those we don't like." -former U.S. Sen. Gary Hart
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says...

Confused me for a moment, that is for certain.
--
Tweak (original poster equals "knobby chicken dude", but I have resorted
to a pseudonym)
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writes:

The AMA only charges $1 for youth memberships !
I mentioned this to Nar HQ at Naram-45 and narcon
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So they ignore you too, eh?
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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