[Trolls} Received the holy grail and are silent



WOW! I *NEVER* thought that would happen. I guess I'll see what else shakes out. There may yet be a light at the end of the tunnel!
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
This is a country which stands tallest in troubled times, a country that clings to fundamental principles, cherishes its constitutional heritage, and rejects simple solutions that compromise the values that lie at the roots of our democratic system. -- Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall, 1972
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Bob Kaplow wrote:

Have you tried to renew yet?
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On 18 Jul 2005 11:29:00 -0500, kaplow snipped-for-privacy@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) wrote:

I told you things were improving. I really think we have a good bunch of people that are interested in doing the right thing.
I don't know of anything else quite as eath shattering that happened there.
Still no action on what to do about Iz. I thought they should get him a hunk but they said if they got one for Iz, they'd have to get Jerry one too. ;-)
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Kaplow, are you really admitting that things may have changed? Isn't that step one in the 12 step process? You CAN break this obsession with TRA!
There are other things that have happened over the last few years or will happen, but aren't posted on RMR, because, to be honest, in case you've not noticed, some (non members) will rarely, if ever, acknowledge it as a good change, without labeling it something for the "transparent mosaic, labled as model airplane parts", with an undocumented delay"
Grasshopper... Sit back and listen, and don't be so ready to hop...There's much that has changed since you were with TRA...
writes:

shakes
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Phil Stein wrote:

the BoD's consideration of my expulsion
which to the credit of one BoD member was promptly put down
- iz
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Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed [announce only] wrote:

You and I have a different take on this. The CONSIDERATION of your expulsion is a duty of the board, if there were reports/complaints from members that you were causing harm to the organization... but...

To the credit of the entire board (not just one BoD member) it was put down. What do I mean by that (especially since I wasn't there)? Although your inference is that one BoD member would not countenance your expulsion, one member by themselves could not have prevented it -- erego, I must give credit to a majority (in some sense) of the board for not allowing it (though, again, it may have been DRIVEN by one member).
And please don't take this the wrong way -- I don't believe you should have been expelled, but I believe it entirely proper that the consideration should have taken place.
In essence, it actually affirms my belief that the BoD has improved, because a) they responded to a perceived problem, and b) upon further analysis, took what I believe to be the appropriate action (in other words, no action). Going by past history, one of those two probably wouldn't have taken place -- either they would have ignored a possible problem and kept going, or they would have expelled a member without taking careful consideration of both the need for the expulsion, and its consequences. I don't see how that can be viewed as anything other than 'better' than the past...
David Erbas-White

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I agree.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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David Erbas-White wrote:

I agree, the BoD can be thought "better" than in the past for a number reasons, foremost of which is constitution
but has a long way to go, as the wrongful, self-serving or arbitrary actions of the past remain standing to the present without challenge
transparency is still a long way off
- iz
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Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed [announce only] wrote:

Wait a minute here... I thought it was s'posed to be a mosaic not transparency?
Crap, now I'll have to rename my L2 bird....
Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75
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Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed [announce only] wrote:

Mmmmm... Iz?
What makes you think it will ever be, or should be, transparent? What in law would make it so?
I hate to tell you this, but having been involved in several 501(c)3 corporations myself, the actual operations don't necessarily have to be 'fully' transparent, nor do they have to be voted on by the members, etc. Certain aspects of the operation must be, but others don't. I sat through the formation of one corporation where the folks creating it specifically went out of their way to ensure that things WEREN'T transparent, and it was all done legally (and for good reasons, though I was NOT one of those in favor of doing it that way).
Again, I believe the board is 'better than before'. I also don't believe that they have any interest in conforming to what any one (or even several) members may want. They MAY not have any interest (not that I believe this, this is a hypothetical) even if ALL members wanted that -- but then, the members would vote with their wallets and feet.
I come back to the point that as long as I believe the organization is making overall positive progress, it should be supported.
David Erbas-White
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David Erbas-White wrote:

<snip for brevity>

"Transparency" is a rallying cry often used by malcontents who have nothing else of substance to support their position. So instead they attack the way the decision was made. We've been seeing this in local politics a lot lately, with one politician campaigning almost entirely on making the process "transparent" while offering no real solutions of her own. The way I see it, the only thing that matters is the result. As long as reasonable solutions and choices are made, how those decisions were arrived at is irrelevant.

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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

TRA is a non-profit corporation under Alaskan statute, and is a 501c3 tax-exempt organization under IRS regulation
it is supported by member funds
it should conduct it's financial affairs in an honest and upright fashion, have its books audited by a Certified Public Accounting firm to validate that their financial reporting is performed consistent with Generally Accepted Accounting Principles [GAAP], and the so validated reports should be made accessible for member review without obstruction
for starters
for example ...
http://www.arrl.org/announce/annualreport / http://www.arrl.org/announce/annualreport/2004/2004-Annual-Report.pdf http://www.arrl.org/announce/annualreport/2004/final%20fs%20123104.pdf
these in fact are available regardless of membership, on the Internet. No request, formal or otherwise, required
- iz
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Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed [announce only] wrote:

None of this has anything to do with regulation of rocketry, motor certs, etc. It's just another excuse to bash TRA.

That's their choice. If you prefer the way their org is run, feel free to join them and leave the rocketry orgs to the people who actually do rocketry.
p
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Are you actually INCAPABLE of staying on topic?
I thought so.
Jerry
"TRA has "crippled" rocketry for decades, by failing to be honest in its operations, fair in its treatment of its constituency, and effective in its role as an advocacy." - Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed
"I was feeling badly that I was just wassting my time responding to Ray." - Alan Jones
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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wrote:

So do you and Iz wipe each other's face now?
Maybe Iz can give you a HAND with that biig fine.
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On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:51:57 GMT, "Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed [announce

I'm sure they will - when you get elected to the BOD.
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At least we know for certain that is not the case WRT Tripoli. After all, there are several valid complaints:
HPR magazine endorsed by TRA for 1.5 decades all the time it was a "late or never" proposition, absorbing member money year after year.
A variety of certification foibles. Certifying motors that were never tested, certifying delays that were never tested, decertifying motors with no rule allowing it, endorsing field modifications of known defective motors (decertification required under the rules) with no recertification as required, demanding permits even the law does not require, etc.
And then we have the whole regulation writing via NFPA where the "sport rocket caucus" itself authored and adopted the very regs that killed the membership roles. Sounds more self-destructive than self-regulation to me.
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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wrote:

The HPR crap is fixed did you miss that?
Your certification crap is nothing more than allegations.
You don't like NFPA so you thought shipping rocket motors are model aircraft parts would fix it? DOT sure got a laugh out of that. Did you pay that fine yet?
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Really?
From what to what else?
I ask.
Jerry Irvine wrote:

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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At the meeting Saturday, it was announced that TRA has exercised their option to give HPR 90 days notice that HPR is no longer the official magazine and there will no longer be any relationship between HPR and TRA.
I assume Kevin will be removing all links to and mention of HPR from the TRA web site soon.
Jerry - It's time for you to start publishing your magazine.
wrote:

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