[Trolls} Received the holy grail and are silent

Phil Stein wrote:


Yes I know. I too, have a "dart" board.
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

You've never even admitted to it, much less apologized. And whatever you might have posted to rmr is irrelevant. You had your chance at the meeting and you refused.
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On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:32:52 -0700, David Erbas-White

They asked him to appologize for breaking an FAA waiver and to promise never do it again. I don't recall anything about promising to stop TRA bashing. It is in a TR issue that came out right after LDRS - thinkn it was 2001 but can't swear to it.
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Isn't that perhaps like the wrongly convicted prisoner who was repeatedly denied parole for failure to admit to what he hadn't done.
We still have several TRA members, including one BOD member, who refuse to admit to their past wrong doings, yet are still members. WHy are they treated different than Jerry?
As you are so fond of saying, forget the past. If Jerry would agree to not fly without waivers in the future, would that do?
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin Historical Review of Pennsylvania. 1759
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On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 03:15:32 GMT, "Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed [announce

Name them.

If you quit looking through that mosaic things will clear up

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Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed [announce only] wrote:

Are you kidding me?
Its one of the best examples of corporate TOLERANCE I can imagine.
--
Gary Bolles

summum jus, summa injuria est
  Click to see the full signature.
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Even discussing IZs ejection.
Refusing my "friend"s membership.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
We have awakened a sleeping giant and instilled in it a terrible resolve. -- Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, WWII.
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Intolerant Sheeple Jones wrote:

If this isn't true, take it up with Bob. He said in this forum and in this thread, that NAR certified motors which are labeled as having a 9 second delay, even though the delay actually tested out to 6 seconds. That's more than the allowable level of variability. Or look at the motor data yourself, since you claim to be such a data-hungry tech dude. I'm not about to pay NAR nine bucks just to get their motor data.
u
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

pot ... kettle ... black
- iz
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My concern is consumers modifying delays PROPERLY, and not getting the delay they expect, because they don't really know the starting point. THAT is why I'm looking for the TRA and CAR and a few NAR delay test results.
A couple weeks ago I emailed all 3 organizations regarding missing delay info. Both NAR and CAR responded that they will make the info available. I've had no response yet from TRA TMT.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
This is a country which stands tallest in troubled times, a country that clings to fundamental principles, cherishes its constitutional heritage, and rejects simple solutions that compromise the values that lie at the roots of our democratic system. -- Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall, 1972
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Alan Jones wrote:

And here we see the very essence of the Irvine/Cato/Kaplow/Izzie/Jones mentality: They think they're better than everyone else in TRA. When the rest of the membership doesn't buy into their crap, well heck, it can't possibly be their fault, right? So the majority of the members must be "sheeple".
%
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Ray,
I don't really give a crap about Bob's beef with TRA, or your feelings about it either. I do take offense when you take a slam at a club (NIRA) that you know little to nothing about. A lot of good people have been, and still are, a part of NIRA. It may not be the greatest club in exsistence, and it's certainly not free from problems, but some of the best rocket people I've ever known I've met there.
Bob Wiersbe, Lifetime NIRA Member
snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

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You know NOTHING about NIRA. I've done NOTHING to stop them from returning as a prefecture. In fact when I was kicked out, I ACTIVELY tried to get one of at least 2 dozen TRA members to take my place. None was willing to do so.
We are a mixed club, with some NAR members, some TRA, some both, and some neither. We used to be competition oriented, but haven't been so for well over a decade.

Hardly. I tried to get someone to take over for me, just to keep the certification option available to the club. At the time the only other TRA club in the area was anything except family oriented.
The problem we are dealing with now has nothing to do with our TRA status. We've lost the only decent HPR field we had access to. THe owner of the sod farm passed away, and the family sold off everything.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
... One nation under surveillance, divisive, with liberty and justice for none.
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Remember that truth is the ultimate defence against such suits.

The problem is who decides what is detrimental. It was my position that what the BOD itself was doing was detrimental to the association.

I disagree. That's why we now have whistle blower laws in this country.

What if the org. didn't pay its taxes and kept it a secret. What if a member told the org. to fix the problem and was ignored. WOuld it be then unfair to criticizs the organization for its errors and not acknowledging those errors.
Funny you should use this example, because that is EXACTLY one of the things TRA did for several years, and kept hidden from its members.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
"For as adamant as my country has been about civil liberties during peacetime, it has a long history ... of failing to preserve civil liberties when it perceived its national security threatened." -- former Supreme Court Justice William Brennan
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Greg Cisko wrote:

As David has already explained, freedom of speech does not protect an individual from being kicked out of a private organization when the individual defames that org.

Because Bob keeps saying it was _where_ he posted that got him kicked out, and we both know that's not true. Merely posting to this forum does not get one kicked out of TRA. I don't know the specifics of Bob's case, and don't wish to speculate as to what he might have posted.
R
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Then why wasn't Iz kicked out for similar posts? Because management criticism is NOT a valid reason for kicking someone out of an organization. At least the BOD has changed enough since 1996 that they've learned that.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
"For as adamant as my country has been about civil liberties during peacetime, it has a long history ... of failing to preserve civil liberties when it perceived its national security threatened." -- former Supreme Court Justice William Brennan
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[Looks like this post never got posted earlier today...]
Then can you explain why I was kicked out? Or why there was even discussion about kicking Iz out for his posts to RMR?
Did I (or Iz or John or Jim) ever illegally ship rocket motors? Mislabel them? Lie about what motors were certified? Fraudulently certify motors? Certify folks without them actually passing the test / successfully flying their rocket? Commit some sort of serious safety violation at a TRA launch? Steal money from TRA or its members? Misappropriate TRA assets? Commit assult and/or battery against another rocketeer?
If it wasn't posts to RMR, I'd really like to know what I did. Because all I was ever charged with was my RMR posts.
it jsut occured to me that maybe I got kicked out because I *DIDN'T* do any of the above things I've listed. Because I can name TRA members OTHER THAN JERRY who have done everything on this list.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
We have awakened a sleeping giant and instilled in it a terrible resolve. -- Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, WWII.
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Malarky, and you know it. I spoke with several BoD members when that entire incident came up, and not one of them thought kicking him out was a good idea.
Of course, you'll twist this somehow, but that's a cold, hard fact from conversations I had with the respective BoD members.
-Kevin
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Read my reply to Kevin. Folks kicked out a decade ago are still unwelcome in TRA. TRA holds a grudge longer than Irvine.
See if you can get the list from TRA HQ of former members who have a "not allowed to rejoin" flag in their membership records. Just the fact that such a flag exists is a problem.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
We have awakened a sleeping giant and instilled in it a terrible resolve. -- Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, WWII.
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Well, then let's ask about the present: I posted recently about a former TRA member that showed up at a couple local events. He told me about going to a TRA launch *THIS* year, filling out a form, submitting a membership check, and flying HPR at the launch. Afterwards, his application and check were returned to him, and his membership denied by TRA HQ.
Didn't you offer to investigate this matter? Have you found out anything yet? TRA is still persecuting former members for things that happened over a decade ago. What is wrong with those former members pointing out TRAs flaws from similar eras, especially when the problems continue unaddressed today?
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
We have awakened a sleeping giant and instilled in it a terrible resolve. -- Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, WWII.
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