[Trolls} Received the holy grail and are silent

Jerry Irvine wrote:


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wrote:

I don't think NAR collects or gives enough information to satisfy a true anal retentive engineer. Think about it - they average 3 samples. You don't know each sample tested out to. How about a 9 second delay where the samples were 9, 7 & 11? You still get an average of 9.
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Alan Jones wrote:

Quit squirming. You showed disrespect for the members of TRA by comparing them to sheep. At least have the balls to admit it.

You said "if they choose a wise leader". I'm simply clarifying your definition of a "wise leader", based on your comments here.

Then what "activists" were you referring to, and why should anyone give a flying fig whether or not you hold them in high regard?

Yes it does. If it passed, it was within the acceptable level of variability. Since the acceptable level of variability is given, you know exactly as much as if you were provided the actual test data. In other words, a 10 second delay is going to be with 20% of 10 seconds. If it wasn't, then it would not have passed.

Bob posted that information in this very thread! Haven't you been paying attention at all??

You've missed the point, probably due to missing Bob's posts on this issue. They allowed AT to call it a 9 second delay even though it tested to only 6 seconds. Where is the sense in that? They should have either failed the motor or required AT to change the designation to more accurately reflect the true delay time.

Oh, give me a break! Like there's no middle ground between "lighting a fuse and running away" and "I'd better test the motors myself before I fly them"??

I know there are many engineers, including rocket engineers, in this hobby. But so far you're the only one I've heard of who go to the lengths you described just to fly a certified motor. If the certification process for consumer sport rocket motors isn't good enough for you, maybe you should stick to industrial or military grade motors and leave the hobby stuff to us lowly hobbyists.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

More importantly, a 10 second delay could test at 8 seconds or as long as 12 seconds and it would be within spec.
Consecutive firings of the same motor could vary differently each time.
If You need it more accurate than that, get a timer.
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On 14 Jul 2005 20:36:35 -0700, " snipped-for-privacy@aol.com"

I'm not squirming. You seen to be the one trying to twist my posts into insults. Sheep are really good creatures. You brought sheep into the discussion. I used the compact phrase "sheeple", meaning that that the TRA membership is led by a strong intolerant administration. By contrast The NAR has weaker administration. Bundick in particular set up his tenure as a member driven leadership style. Essentially Mark is just asks the members where they want to go, and he facilitates membership initiatives. If you feel dissrespected being a follower in an association with strong leadership, you could try a different association.

Nobody seems to be flying figs except you. You should just fly rockets instead.

S&T does not run AT or any other motor producer. S&T certifies motors for use by members and other consumers, and makes the test data available so they know the performance of the motors that they may wish to use. Product labeling is a function of the manufacturer, not S&T. Naturally S&T wants manufacturers to use clear labeling and marketing, but they have no control or enforcement tools. All S&T can do is deprive its membership of the opportunity to fly good but poorly labeled motors by decertifying them, which is in nobody's interest. It is the manufacturers responsibility to use motor designations that accurately reflect the actual delivered performance. You are assigning fault to S&T when the fault is entirely the manufacturer's.

So mister pass/fail now wants some middle ground? There is not only middle ground, but a continuous spectrum between irresponsible and prudent. I don't give breaks, YOU place yourself somewhere in that range.

There are people who do not fly sport rockets because the motors are not reliable enough for them. My standards are doubtless higher than most, but I still fly. I do try to minimize my risks, and that means that I do not fly with suspect motors.
Alan
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Intolerant sheeple Jones wrote:

Do you really expect anyone to believe that you use of the term "sheeple" was not derogatory? Everyone I know would consider it an insult. How about you, would you mind being called a sheeple?

Another derogatory insinuation. Wait, let me guess, now you're going to say that "intolerant" is a compliment.

I feel disrespected by your snide insinuations that our leadership is "intolerant" and that we are nothing but mindless sheep. Furthermore your denials are an insult to my intelligence.

Cute, but evasive. What "activists" were you referring to, and would anyone care about your regard for them?

The fault is S&T's, because they certified motors that fell outside the allowable level of variability. Why even bother with certification if they aren't going to hold manufacturers to the required standards??

Name one, besides youself.

So fly with whatever motors you think are worthy of such an exalted one as yourself, and leave the hobby stuff to us lowly hobbyists.
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It is descriptive. You "feeling" it is derogatory, aside, it is descriptive.

Are they insulted because they are sheeple and they do not like that noted?

It is descriptive. You "feeling" it is derogatory, aside, it is descriptive.

THAT is a "derogatory insinuation".

THAT is a "derogatory insinuation".

So yours are obviously MEANT to be an insult to mine then?

Care to back up that libel with a fact?
Jerry
"I am sorry, but did Bob actually say that? It appears you are quoting him. If you are not quoting him, then this is an a-hole like manouver. I mean really. What are you trying to do here? It seems like the ultimate that a jerk would try to pull off." - Greg Cisko
"Well maybe there is something to it then. I hate to say it, but a few in my section tell me Jerry has a point." - Greg Cisco
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry "Sheeple" Irvine wrote:

Well, since you're so insistent that it's not derogatory, I guess you won't mind if I call you "sheeple" from now on.
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On 15 Jul 2005 11:55:23 -0700, " snipped-for-privacy@aol.com"

Fine, consider yourself an insult, or insulted. Nobody cares much what you and everyone you know considers. I don't mind being called a sheeple in the appropriate context.

It is not an insinuation. It is a direct statement regarding TRA management style. See previous posts for supporting development.

TRA leadership IS intolerant. Why are you calling your TRA peers mindless sheep? I don't deny what I have said, I deny much of what you misinterpret. I have no need to insult your intelligence, which is clear enough from your posts.

By "activists" I was referring to leaders and problems solvers, in contrast to whiners and followers. Nobody should care about my higher regard for activists, and it is odd that you do.

That is a direct lie.

Geez, just pick names out of a phone book. Or, try your local chapter of IPMS. These guys are expert modelers who are aghast that we actually build and fly rare collectors plastic model kits and launch them with model rocket motors. I know of at least one MR motor manufacturer who started producing his own lime of motors because the prior available motors were not reliable enough.
Alan

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wrote:

Do you have any information about them being intolerant within the last 3 years? If so, I'd like to hear it.
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That's true. They tolerate Bruce Kelly just fine.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:00:15 -0400, Phil Stein

No, just what I read on RMR. I made a subjective observation. I don't really have enough contact with TMT to justify that observation. I do know that there was some turnover on the BoD n recent years. What have they done within the last three years to make them more tolerant?
Alan
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wrote:

Turnover on the BoD in recent years has make them more tolerant. The current people listen and take the opinions of members into consideration.
Much of the negative you see on rmr is conjecture, people repeating hearsay and of course the malcontents. I stayed away from TRA for years. When I joined, I found out it's not so bad. Several people here on rmr have recently had the same experience. LDRS which is TRAs annual meeting is going on now. I'm expecting some more improvements to be instituted and announced at the meeting which is tonight.
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I'll buy that. All but one of the problem BOD members is gone. I'll admit I don't know most of the BOD any more, but the few I do know (other than Chuck) are good people. But HQ is still in Kelly's house...

Let's hope...
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
We have awakened a sleeping giant and instilled in it a terrible resolve. -- Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, WWII.
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On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:33:15 -0400, Phil Stein

I meant to say TRA rather than TMT.
My impression was that there not enough of the newer BoD members to make a substantial, difference. I am pleased to read that "it is not so bad", and that there is hope for more improvements.
Alan
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wrote:

Not 100% of the people that were already there caused or were part of the problem. So even though about half the BOD members have changed in the last 3 years, that doesn't mean the BOD is half bad.
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What is the basis for this claim?

GFL
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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wrote:

Everthing you've posted in the last 10 years.

Guess I'm lucky. Last night they announced that they are exercising their 90 day option to sever their relationship with HPR. Didn't any of you pals tell you this was coming?
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How about 5 specific examples?

Yes. 5 years ago :)
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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wrote:

I can wait a few hours and you'll post fresh examples.
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