[Trolls} Received the holy grail and are silent



What has changed?
I ask.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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wrote:

The witch is dead.
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On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 19:58:54 -0400, Phil Stein

TRA does not tolerate whistle blowers, they prefere sheeple.
Alan
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wrote:

How do you know? Were you thrown out 10 years ago like the other whiners?
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On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 08:56:21 -0400, Phil Stein

I only know what I read and hear.

No, I had the wisdom to never attempt to join the TRA. However, I do know some "whiners" who were thrown out of the TRA, and you have not responded with counter examples of TRA whistle blowers who are tolerated.
Alan
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Alan Jones wrote:

Iz (appropriately, IMNSHO) wasn't thrown out. He has "gone further" than Bob ever did.
-Kevin
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NONE are.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Alan Jones wrote:

I don't know of any actual "whistle blowers", past or present. Just a few overgrown brats who've spent years throwing hissy fits because TRA doesn't bow to their will. Like Jerry, who thinks he should be given a free pass to get his illegal motors certified. Or Bob K, who thinks that the only way to solve any problem is his way and that any solution other than his own is a capital crime.
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wrote:

I read and heard the same crap you read now before I joined TRA. Because of it, I didn't join for at least four years after I joined NAR. I joined TRA because I was unable to come up with a NAR L3CC person to work with on my L3 project. I figured if it was as bad as I'd heard, NAR will recognise my L3 and I could drop my membership. Once I became a member, I started receiving Tripoli Report (TR) which is a quarterly internal newletter that tells members what is happeniing inside the organization. It has minutes from BOD meeting an editorial from the Prez, and other news items. There is an election issue that has the resumes of the candiates. After I was a member for about a year TRA started a private members forum. That has replaced a lot of tech discussion that used to happen on rmr. Seeing what is going on from the inside has changed my mind about a lot of the things I'm seen on rmr. I've continued with TRA because I think they are instep with what I'm looking for in an organization. Of course there are things that I think could be improved but, there doesn't seem to be anything horribly wrong as some would have you believe.

The only whistle blower during my membership was Iz and he wasn't thrown out. To be honest, I reccomended that he be thrown out on the private forum. I even quoted the bylaws that allowed him to be. I have raised a stink about HPR and haven't been thrown out. (does that make me a whistle blower?) I'm not the only one that has raised a stink about it. Fixing the HPR problem is the only big thing that bothers me about TRA. Last year the BOD implemeted a plan to fix it and I think it will be fixed this year.
The expulsions that happened 10 years ago would have bothered me if what the 'victims' say is true.
The only person I feel I heard both sides of the story of is Jerry. I do not have a problem with his suspension. Also he knows what he has to do to be readmitted and to have his motors (that he doesn't make) recertified. Also as far as certifing Jerry's motors, he tried to get NAR to do and they wouldn't either.
I got the details on the case Bob was talking about and it sounds like if the guy contacts Ken Good and they take care of a few things, he can get back in. There was a legitimate reason the person was suspended. I'm not mentioning details because Bob requested it. I am not getting the info from Kevin which is who Bob asked not to reveal any info.
As I've said before, I don't consider the fact that delay data is not published to be a problem. Bob Kalow, John Cato, Jerry and others do. NFPA says test the stuff to be within a certain percentage of stated value. That is done. If it doesn't pass, the motor doesn't make the certified list. Also, as you probably know, people can do all kinds of things to change the delay time. I've seen people get grease on them, putmasking tape on them, clog the powder hole with grease etc. I have to wonder what percentage of bonus delays are cause by user error. Now with more people drilling them, we'll start seeing more delays that seem to have fired to soon.
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On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 21:45:26 -0400, Phil Stein

This is a perfectly acceptable reason to join the TRA. In many locals, TRA resources exceed NAR resources. While some rocketeers may actually prefer the TRA leadership style to the NAR, I do not.

I may have overstated the case when I used the term "whistle blower". wanted to make the case the Bob is not just some whining malcontent set on destroying the TRA; rather, he wants the TRA to become a better organization. I agree that there are reasons to expel a member, but airing the dirty laundry is not one of them. That said, people and organizations make mistakes. I just think TRA makes more mistakes than the NAR.

It may not be problem for you. The NFPA codes provide the minimum motor testing and certification requirements. I disagree with the TRA interpretation of making "test results" available. A simple pass fail listing is inadequate information for safe consumer motor use. I'd even like to see more complete test results from NAR S&T. The difference is that available NAR motor certification data is adequate, and TMT "results" are inadequate for most consumers.

NAR S&T and TMT should not be doing this. They should be testing motors as provided to consumers by the manufactures. They should be prep and fire motors as recommended in manufacturers instructions. This sets a baseline of performance from which consumers can evaluate any mods or sloppy procedures of their own. This does nothing to mitigate the need for more complete certification test results.
Alan

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Alan Jones wrote:

NAR S&T/TMT do test them that way. What Phil is referring to is consumers modifying delays improperly, for whatever reason, and not getting the results they expected.
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On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:02:18 GMT, Dave Grayvis

Yep.
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On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:02:18 GMT, Dave Grayvis

How can they have results expectations without motor certification test data on delays?
Alan
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wrote:

They do test them. It's pass/fail. If it passes, it is withiin the NFPA tolerance which IIRC is 20%.
Tell me what you think about this NAR cert data? http://nar.org/SandT/pdf/Aerotech/F39.pdf Notice it doesn't have what Bob has been complaining about not being in TMT test results and that it is 11 years old.
I just wanted to point that out. I'm satisfied with pass/fail.
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Since in the past this has proven NOT to be the case even when they CLAIM they were tested, why should any one trust them?
Especially as a "recognized AHJ"?
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Do you have direct evidence of your lies?
Why should anybody trust you?
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Wrong. As you well know that claim has never been proven.
You, on the other hand, have been proven a fraud, a liar, an illegal shipper, and a felon. Now, why should anyone trust you?
s
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Your disregarding the proof in no way obviates it.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Why won't you show us the proof that you claim to have?
you do have it don't you?
jerry irvine wouldn't lie, would he?
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

oh, but it has
on many occassions with clear evidence, in a number of ways yet all revealing a consistent picture
but as I said, you have no use for evidence
either to acknowledge it or to provide it
- iz
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