[Trolls} Received the holy grail and are silent

They already dropped you, Jerry.

Now how about dropping or changing some of your known defects? Pay up on that fraud conviction. Pay your DOT fine, and admit you can't legally manufacture or ship motors. Stop lying and blaming all your problems on TRA/NAR. Find a more constructive hobby than ranting on RMR. Get a job and a life and move on.

And here we see the very essence of the Irvine/Cato/Kaplow/Izzie/Jones mentality: They think they're better than everyone else in TRA. When the rest of the membership doesn't buy into their crap, well heck, it can't possibly be their fault, right? So the majority of the members must be "sheeple".

I am honored to be classed with Cato and Kaplow. I cannot speak for what Irvine/Cato/Kaaplow/Izzie, or the majority of TRA members think.

"Sheeple" may be a Irvinism. Jerry has had much more contact with many more TRA members than I have. You should ask him to characterize the majority of TRA membership. I do know that there are many good people in the TRA. Nevertheless, my observation is that TRA leadership prefers docile members who follow the party line and refrain from airing TRA problems in public forums. Please provide counter examples where TRA leadership encouraged members to air TRA problems and grievances in public forums.

Alan

I only know what I read and hear.

No, I had the wisdom to never attempt to join the TRA. However, I do know some "whiners" who were thrown out of the TRA, and you have not responded with counter examples of TRA whistle blowers who are tolerated.

Alan

Iz (appropriately, IMNSHO) wasn't thrown out. He has "gone further" than Bob ever did.

-Kevin

This should be in the FAQ.

NONE are.

The proper place to air TRA problems and grievances is in TRA. That has nothing to do with the members being "docile".

The few who go running off at the mouth trash-talking TRA on public forums are doing so because they didn't get their way. They're just spoiled children throwing a tantrum. It has nothing to do with towing the party line.

I don't know of any actual "whistle blowers", past or present. Just a few overgrown brats who've spent years throwing hissy fits because TRA doesn't bow to their will. Like Jerry, who thinks he should be given a free pass to get his illegal motors certified. Or Bob K, who thinks that the only way to solve any problem is his way and that any solution other than his own is a capital crime.

And when that simply does not work AT ALL then what?

What is YOUR backup plan?

Jerry

Then you have to accept that you aren't going to get your way, and move on.

Or, if you're a spoiled toddler, you can spend 10-15 years crying and ranting about how unfair and evil TRA is, while furiously pounding your tiny fists on the floor and threatening to hold your breath 'til you turn blue.

TRA has a private forum where people are encouraged to air problems. I see no benefit to having people that are not members adding their 2 cents to the discussion.

Here I have to disagree. I just joined, but I've been going back and forth for several years about joining. As a potential member, I would certainly have appreciated more 'inside knowledge' of TRA operations.

David Erbas-White

P.S. I also have to state that every time I've asked TRA board members a question (or just members), I've had an almost immediate, informative, direct response.

As your P.S. makes clear, it's easy enough to get "inside knowledge" from TRA members. It's impossible to get inside knowledge from people who are not in TRA. All you can get from disgruntled former members is opinion, speculation, and misinformation.

=E2=88=91

I read and heard the same crap you read now before I joined TRA. Because of it, I didn't join for at least four years after I joined NAR. I joined TRA because I was unable to come up with a NAR L3CC person to work with on my L3 project. I figured if it was as bad as I'd heard, NAR will recognise my L3 and I could drop my membership. Once I became a member, I started receiving Tripoli Report (TR) which is a quarterly internal newletter that tells members what is happeniing inside the organization. It has minutes from BOD meeting an editorial from the Prez, and other news items. There is an election issue that has the resumes of the candiates. After I was a member for about a year TRA started a private members forum. That has replaced a lot of tech discussion that used to happen on rmr. Seeing what is going on from the inside has changed my mind about a lot of the things I'm seen on rmr. I've continued with TRA because I think they are instep with what I'm looking for in an organization. Of course there are things that I think could be improved but, there doesn't seem to be anything horribly wrong as some would have you believe.

The only whistle blower during my membership was Iz and he wasn't thrown out. To be honest, I reccomended that he be thrown out on the private forum. I even quoted the bylaws that allowed him to be. I have raised a stink about HPR and haven't been thrown out. (does that make me a whistle blower?) I'm not the only one that has raised a stink about it. Fixing the HPR problem is the only big thing that bothers me about TRA. Last year the BOD implemeted a plan to fix it and I think it will be fixed this year.

The expulsions that happened 10 years ago would have bothered me if what the 'victims' say is true.

The only person I feel I heard both sides of the story of is Jerry. I do not have a problem with his suspension. Also he knows what he has to do to be readmitted and to have his motors (that he doesn't make) recertified. Also as far as certifing Jerry's motors, he tried to get NAR to do and they wouldn't either.

I got the details on the case Bob was talking about and it sounds like if the guy contacts Ken Good and they take care of a few things, he can get back in. There was a legitimate reason the person was suspended. I'm not mentioning details because Bob requested it. I am not getting the info from Kevin which is who Bob asked not to reveal any info.

As I've said before, I don't consider the fact that delay data is not published to be a problem. Bob Kalow, John Cato, Jerry and others do. NFPA says test the stuff to be within a certain percentage of stated value. That is done. If it doesn't pass, the motor doesn't make the certified list. Also, as you probably know, people can do all kinds of things to change the delay time. I've seen people get grease on them, putmasking tape on them, clog the powder hole with grease etc. I have to wonder what percentage of bonus delays are cause by user error. Now with more people drilling them, we'll start seeing more delays that seem to have fired to soon.

Ray-

What's all this toddler, baby & brat crap? Are you pissed because you had to babysit this weekend?

Can you imagine a constructive discussion about TRA busniess here? I can't. I can see posting announcements.

No, I just happened to see a toddler throwing a tantrum recently because he couldn't get what he wanted. It reminded me of what some of these other characters are doing. Jerry wants a free ride for his illegal motors, Bob wants Chuck's head on a pike, and neither one has the maturity to accept that they can't get their way. So they throw their little online tantrums, for years on end.

This is a perfectly acceptable reason to join the TRA. In many locals, TRA resources exceed NAR resources. While some rocketeers may actually prefer the TRA leadership style to the NAR, I do not.

I may have overstated the case when I used the term "whistle blower". wanted to make the case the Bob is not just some whining malcontent set on destroying the TRA; rather, he wants the TRA to become a better organization. I agree that there are reasons to expel a member, but airing the dirty laundry is not one of them. That said, people and organizations make mistakes. I just think TRA makes more mistakes than the NAR.

It may not be problem for you. The NFPA codes provide the minimum motor testing and certification requirements. I disagree with the TRA interpretation of making "test results" available. A simple pass fail listing is inadequate information for safe consumer motor use. I'd even like to see more complete test results from NAR S&T. The difference is that available NAR motor certification data is adequate, and TMT "results" are inadequate for most consumers.

NAR S&T and TMT should not be doing this. They should be testing motors as provided to consumers by the manufactures. They should be prep and fire motors as recommended in manufacturers instructions. This sets a baseline of performance from which consumers can evaluate any mods or sloppy procedures of their own. This does nothing to mitigate the need for more complete certification test results.

Alan