[Trolls} Received the holy grail and are silent

Respect is earned...
In Tripoli respect is a prerequisite.


Then you lose respect and the right to be a member.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Well, I must admit that as a convicted fraud, a proven liar, a failed businessman, and an ex-TRA member, you're an expert on losing respect and your membership. However, you lost your respect long before you lost your membership.
Let's see how long it is before Jerry edits this down to "you're an expert" and starts quoting it.
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Greg Cisko wrote:

How do you know? Are you even a member of TRA?

Yeah, but he's also pissed because TRA did hand him Chuck's head on a pike, and the rest of TRA didn't kiss his backside and beg forgiveness for not doing things Bob's Way.

So he should have known better than to behave like a spoiled child when he didn't get his way.

Since you apparently didn't understand, I'll explain it. It's possible to do the right thing (by correcting the problem) AND protect the org (by booting out the jerk who's publicly slandering it).

That's not what Bob wanted. He didn't want them to just "consider" his issue, no matter how reasonably. He wanted (and still wants) total capitulation. He wants his solution, his way, and nothing less. Just ask him!
E
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Correct. And in 9 years not a single NIRA member has stepped up to take that job over. TRA permanently lost one of the oldest rocket clubs in the country.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty. -- Thomas Jefferson
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Bob Kaplow wrote:

How do you know? Can you predict the future? Is it just a handful of old fossils stuck in the 1960's, and when they die off the club dies too?
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writes:

How does Bob know? Are you for real with that question? It is quite a laugher!!!!! Lets talk about the situation right now without the crystal ball. No fossils that died, just people that for one reason or another lost interest or got burnt out. And the core NIRA people were a great bunch of guys. As you may know it is not always easy to get people to get involved in NAR section activities.
--

snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com




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Greg Cisko wrote:

Yes I am. Bob said "permanently". That means forever. But attitudes change, and membership turns over, and not everyone holds a grudge the way Bob does. So how does he know that the club will never again want to be involved with TRA? Even if every current member of that club feels as Bob does, someday those members will be gone, and if the club doesn't die out, there will be new members running things. How can he speak for what future generations may or may not do?
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I'd suspect that if Kaplow left NIRA, within a couple year, the prefecture would be re-activated. The old timers wouldn't be happy, but the new folks would do it as they'd see it was the best for the club. (the logical view). I got elected Prefect in a club that was, to say it mildly, was NAR centric, and within a year or so, was holding EX launches. I'm sure that the Kaplow view of TRA has effected many members of NIRA, and it resulted in a lopsided view. New people and new blood will dilute that effect.
In this way, he's also doing a disservice to his club. TRA members in the club can't do their certs without getting an "out of club" prefect there, or driving to another launch, because after all these year, Kaplow insists that TRA is evil!
"The Wrath of Khan, er, Kapolw"

take
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Woody,
Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.
You don't know anything about NIRA, the club dynamics, who's in it, or what happened with Bob. You base this whole rant on your perception of Bob, and you've got a lot of it wrong.
I was around when Bob got kicked out of TRA. I saw the letter (and copy of Bob's check), in fact, until a month ago I had a copy of the whole thing (threw it out along with just about all my rocket stuff). Didn't get it from Bob either. What happened in NIRA was that we talked about getting a new Prefect, but no one wanted the job. And it wasn't because Bob was ranting about TRA at every meeting, in fact, I don't remember him ever bringing it up at a meeting. Sometimes a few of us "in the know" would joke about it, but that was it. I doubt if any of the people who go to NIRA meetings these days have even heard there was a problem. Heck, I probably put more anti-TRA stuff in the club newsletter during the 7 years I was editor than Bob's ever said at a meeting, or a launch for that matter.
The reason that NIRA isn't a TRA Prefecture now is because it doesn't need to be. The NAR HPR program works just fine for us, since NIRA is an NAR Section. If someone wants to do EX they can join one of the TRA Prefectures that are around. NIRA also doesn't have access to a good HPR field on a regular basis, since we're based in the suburbs of Chicago. We have to go to Wisconsin or downstate, and there are TRA Prefectures and NAR Sections in those areas that regularly host launches. NIRA teamed up with WOOSH last month for a two day launch. I was there for part of one day, and I'd say that HPR flights outnumbered modroc flights. Lots of NAR and TRA members there, and not a single punch was thrown (we did joke about Jerry though).
It's really funny to watch you rant and rave at Bob about his views, though. Those of us that know him just listen quietly, nod our heads, then change the subject, like talk about rockets. Works every time :) Try it!
Bob Wiersbe NAR #44588 (expired)
AZ Woody wrote:

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On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 00:42:08 -0500, "Robert E. Wiersbe"

8-)
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You considered it "old history" as you tossed it. Kaplow cleary does not! When was it dated, if you remember... 96?, 97?, 98?

Unless some happen to read RMR! Kaplow's been bashing TRA on an ongoing basis here for years! I'm not part of NIRA, and have had Kaplows posts blocked for years, but I still know (from responses to his posts) that he's got this hugh hard on for making TRA look bad! It's clear that some from NIRA do read RMR! (all it takes is to view Kaplow's email address!) It's also clear that the folk in NIRA seem to back up Kaplow on things here (your response is a prime example).
You think the new folks would even consider bringing up TRA within the club if they knew Kaplow was still heavily involved with the club? His view and his style would seem to indiate that it would not be a plesent club meeting or launch! Don't be surprised if one day the prefecture gets reactivated by some in the club, and it's not under the NIRA umbrella!
Sorry Robert.. You're to close to the problem and it seems have known Kaplow too long, to see it is a problem.. How many new members has NIRA lost in the process? Say someone want's to join a club in your area and are a TRA member, but after reading Kaplow's rants here on RMR, they decide to drive that extra hour to a launch which is atleast "TRA friendly" (in thier view)?
It's simple. Kaplow needs to drop his rants about TRA, contact the current BOD, and see if he can rejoin. Or he just needs to shut up. It's been 7-10 years since he had a problem. It would be the best for NIRA, RMR, and the hobby overall, IMHO.
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I am curious.
Does TRA "need" to drop/change any of their known defects?
Especially since Kaplow is ONE GUY and TRA impacts THOUSANDS???
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

They already dropped you, Jerry.
Now how about dropping or changing some of your known defects? Pay up on that fraud conviction. Pay your DOT fine, and admit you can't legally manufacture or ship motors. Stop lying and blaming all your problems on TRA/NAR. Find a more constructive hobby than ranting on RMR. Get a job and a life and move on.
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OK so now it looks like you have a huge hardon for Bob. I see little difference between the 2. And now I think I am starting to see why you are involved here. Very interesting I was not aware you did not like Bob.

I really do not see what this has to do with anything.

Sure why not? At one time I was a new nira member. I would not have known the difference in bringing up Bob or TRA at a meeting. And I can tell you for sure that there would have been no resistance if I (or anyone else) wanted to restart the TRA thing in NIRA. I have never heard that it was impossible or unwanted. My personal guess though is that NIRA as a whole (several hundred strong I believe) took offense at the way Bob was treated and booted. Frankly I can't say that I blame them.

Then you really do not know Bob very well. Even though you may disagree with him on an issue I have never known him to make meetings or launches unpleasant. In fact it is usually others that have that honor. And believe me, the atmosphere was primed on a few occasions I attended. So to sum up, you apparently do not know Bob very well. Congrats.

Well whoopie! I am not sure if anyone would or should care if the prefacture gets reactivated. Good for whomever does that. There were some NIRA people that did start a TRA section a few years ago. I think it is called TRA dupage though they are from dekalb and not sure who the genious was that came up with that.
Unless of course, TRA dupage was NIRA's old prefacture. In which case what you are speculating about has already been happened! I may have to check that one out... If it is NIRA's old prefecture, a big stinking pile of dung just landed on your face :-) Not sure if they are still active, but I think so.

I think clubs in general loose people all the time. Are you implying that NIRA has lost new members because they are not a TRA prefecture? Perhaps it has happened, but I really do not see how TRA would even come into it. HPR may be the real issue.

NIRA is TRA friendly. In fact for the most part NIRA is a very friendly club and a nice family oriented organization. I think it is sad you are taking shots at NIRA just to get at Bob.

OK on this we do agree. The TRA compost pile has certainly been turned over (new prez and stuff) and there is a new deal going. I do not see what it would hurt for him to try to join again.
--

snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com



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Robert.. See what I mean?
When I joind a club many miles from NIRA (states away infact), people knew me from RMR and the run ins with Kaplow on RMR. And to a person, were behind me!
To many, Kaplow=NIRA=Flame TRA, and it's been that way for years! (I don't doubt that some local Nira people don't, or don't want to see this!, but the reality is that Nira seems to support the Kaplow view in public forums)! This post from Greg Cisco is another example!
Greg's "I see little difference between the 2." just minicks my view on JI and Kaplow in their view of TRA! That's his rebuttal!
Ask Ed LaCroiox how well the "old timers" were able to hold on to a club when the newbies had a vastly different view.... It's the same thing facing NIRA. Maybe not today or this year, but it very well could happen!
Greg seems to be relying on his view limited of "Kaplow/NIRA/TRA" when joining NIRA, but doesn't apply to others that simply didn't join due to Kaplow's rants. Greg may be an exception....
So Kaplow had no influence in the TRA position of NIRA members? I beg to differ....
Here's a direct from one of your "new members", showing no bias against TRA:

I don't think NAR would be happy if Greg refered to the NAR BOT as a compost pile!
Why why the heck does Kaplow have this power? (including new uninformed members, as Greg says he was)?
Kaplow has not, in 7+ years, presented a shread of reliable information, on why what TRA "did to him" was wrong! Even a scan of the "letter from BK" seems to have been tossed/shreaded by anyone that says they got one...
The real scary thing here is that NIRA may be taking some of the brunt of Kaplow, and not see it...

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Really?
You really have no clue what Bob is doing to his club do you? Neither does Ray. It was quite enjoyable to see both of you get to this point and read Bob W's reply.
I was sort of going to do the normal reply/flame job, but I see Mr Wiersbe (NIRA lifer) sort of replied. So I will kindly bow out in favor of that :-) Cheers and happy rocketing.
--

snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com

> club can't do their certs without getting an "out of club" prefect there,
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OK, you are correct. They've lost a 40 year old club for a decade now. Maybe next year you'll move to Chicago and becoem the new prefect of NIRA. Real estate is probably cheaper here than in southern Kalifornia, and the earth doesn't move under your happy cow feet.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
... One nation under surveillance, divisive, with liberty and justice for none.
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You act like its NOT TRA's fault.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Because It wasn't TRA's fault that no one else stepped up to replace Bob as prefect.
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On 8 Jul 2005 20:04:46 -0700, " snipped-for-privacy@aol.com"

Ray,
Can you blame Bob for holding a grudge? According to him, he was thrown out for speaking his mind. I'm sure that at the time he was doing what he thought was right for the organization. That's enough to make anyone hold a grudge. I just hope that one day Bob will realize that things aren't done that way any more and that he'll rethink his position.
Phil
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