[Trolls} Received the holy grail and are silent

Bob,
Why aren't you complaining about the test data or the fact that the test results are 11 years old or the lack of the delay data? Could it
be because NAT tested it? http://nar.org/SandT/pdf/Aerotech/F39.pdf
I hope you are going to treat both organizations equally.
On 12 Jul 2005 13:31:48 -0500, kaplow snipped-for-privacy@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow) wrote:

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I've asked that this be fixed. Do you think I'll get a response to my request before I hear back from TMT?
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
The problem with governments is that citizens need to keep them on a short leash; unfortunately the nature of the beast is such that governments can usually arrange it so that only they hold their own leash.
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Bob Kaplow wrote:

So again I have to ask, why did NAR approve this arrangement?
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It's simple Ray.. Kaplow has no problem with NAR but will slam TRA if he heard from someone else's brother's friend that there might have been a test that this person didn't see 10 years ago!
Kaplow got booted from TRA (for whatever reason) and simply can not see that TRA is doing some good today.. it's blind hatred and that's all..
I sure would hate to be Kaplow's wife if she left the toilet seat down 10 years back.. He'd never let me forget it! ("I pee standing up, and you violated the Kaplow rule of leaving the seat up. I don't care if all the neighbor's wives think "seat down" is the right way - you'll live the "Kaplow way", and will change my email addr, as well as the plates on my car to include "seatup", just so you don't forget!)

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That is clearly an unfair characterization since it was a Tripoli official who made publis the very irregularities Kaplow and others have noted.
WITH the evidence of cert lists vs test lists AND first hand insidier witness accounts.

Such as?
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Who is this mystery insider, is it you? Is it Bob? Is it Cato?

They protect the membership from you.
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LOL!!
wrote:

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You're welcome to come by and inspect the toilet seats. But one is likely to wack you on the back of the head in the process :-)
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
The problem with governments is that citizens need to keep them on a short leash; unfortunately the nature of the beast is such that governments can usually arrange it so that only they hold their own leash.
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On 11 Jul 2005 11:19:54 -0700, " snipped-for-privacy@aol.com"

I'd bet more of the TRA membership agree with Bob's definition of "better" than you think. Of course most sheeple just want to fly rockets and don't care about improving the organization.

No, I'd rather discuss engineering and science related issues. I have no ax to grind with the TRA. "Corrupt" may be too strong a word. There is certainly room for improvement in TRA and its leadership, and TMT. I do not advocate throwing the baby out with the bath water

There is need for certified delay test data, if you can't see it. I agree that providing the test data will not change the "fact" of the MAFA codes being "law" in most states, nor change the NFPA codes themselves.

This is a different issue that you should take up with the motor manufacture. At least the published NAR S&T delay data makes consumers aware of the product that they are using, while TMT hides any such discrepancy from the user. For the most part a manufactures motor designation is just a label, more marketing than truth. The certification test data establishes the performance of a motor and the specs that the manufacture must reasonably maintain to avoid decertification, liability, and fraud problems.

User error has ho bearing on motor testing and availability of results, unless such error is committed during the certification testing.
Alan

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Alan Jones wrote:

I see no evidence of that.

Again you denigrate the membership simply because they disagree with you!

How is that relevant to what I said? I said that providing the delay test data will not alter the fact that delays are permitted to have up to 20% variation. That means that even you had the test data, you'd still have no guarantee of the precision you claim to "need".

So why is NAR certifying motors that don't fall within the required standards of variation?

User error is directly related to the perception (by some) that delays aren't accurate.
a
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On 12 Jul 2005 23:14:51 -0700, " snipped-for-privacy@aol.com"

That you think? ;)

Not at all. I elevate the membership ship for flying rockets in spite of any organization or leadership problems. Few people want to get involved in political issues or witch hunts, and I don't denigrate people for being good followers, especialy if they choose a wise leader to follow. However, I do tend to hold some activists in higher regard.

I don't claim to need a particular precision or guarantee of precision, I just need to know the tested performance of a product before I use it.

I'm not aware of NAR S&T certifying any motors that failed their certification testing, including standards of variation per NPFA codes.

That is not my concern. A user's perception is his own problem.
I cannot safely design and fly rockets based only on suspect reports from random individuals perception. I need to start with the complete certification test data. Then I consider recent user reports from trusted individuals, and I decide if I need to do my own motor testing prior to actually flying a motor, or return the motors to the manufacturer, or perhaps keep them for a non flying motor collection.
Alan

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:)
Jerry
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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Alan Jones wrote:

Comparing them to sheep isn't very "elevating", and it's certainly not flattering.

By which you clearly mean, a leader you approve of, regardless of whether the members approve or not.

"Activists"? What "activists"?? Surely you don't mean jerks like Jerry, who just wants a free pass for his illegal motors? Or a Johnny Come Lately conspiracy-theory crackpot like Iz? Or Bob K, a control freak who can't stand the fact that TRA doesn't do things they way he thinks they should?

Pass/fail gives you that -- if it passed, you know that it must be within the allowable standard of variability.

Talk to Bob K. He claims they certified some F motors that are designated as having a 9 second delay even though they tested out to 6 seconds. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's more than the 20% variation allowed under NFPA codes.

Ah, but you do seem to have a perception problem. You apparently think that the delay times certified are not accurate. What reason is there to demand the test data unless you don't trust the delays to be accurate within allowable tolerances?

Sounds pretty freaking anal rententive to me. When do you ever find the time to actually fly anything? And how do you think the rest of us manage to get by on "just" the certification reports, without going to all that other trouble?

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I just want to be sure you know you know more about what he means than he does himself.
Jerry
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Why is that?
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On 13 Jul 2005 22:07:44 -0700, " snipped-for-privacy@aol.com"

So, you have a lowly opinion of sheep, and belief that members have a need for, or are deserving of flattery.

By which I mean that I do not denigrate people for being good followers. You would do well to clearly state what you mean and not try to twist, spin, and misinterpret what I and others say.

Focus! Focus! There is no need for you to denigrate the people named above, we know all about them.

Pass/fail does not give me the tested performance of a product.

Don't denigrate Bob and then expect him to make or support your point for you. State your own case.
I'm confident that when Jack Kane signs his name to a NAR S&T certification data sheet showing that a particular motor tested had an average delay of 6 seconds, that it was in fact 6 seconds and not 9 seconds. If a mistake was made, I'm confident that Jake Kane will correct it.

I too manage to get by on "just" the complete NAR S&T certification reports, It is the TMT reports that I find inadequate.
You sound like the kind of guy who just wants to light the fuse and run. Many of us on RMR are rocketry engineers by degree and or experience. "Freaking anal retentive" tells me where you are coming form, but most of us engineering types determine what to expect before we press the launch button. It is just common sense SOP for us. Get over it.
Alan

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I see you "get" Ray.
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:
It's a "bunch of shit".
Damn!! That was a mouthfull!
:)
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wrote:

Thank you for not quoting the nasty part.
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I try.
I am imprefect.
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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