OT: Read Gore's Speech

A litle historical perspective on who voted for the Patriot Act (aka HR

3162)

The makeup of the 107th US Congress at the time

US Senate Democrats - 50 Republicans - 50

House of Representatives Democrats - 212 Republicans - 221 Other - 2

How they Voted

Senate

98-Yea 1-Nay 1-Did not Vote

Yea Democrats - 48 Republicans - 50 Nay Democrats - 1 Did Not Vote Democrats - 1

House of Representatives

357-Yea 66-Nay 9-Did not Vote

Yea Democrats - 146 Republicans - 210 Other - 1 Nay Democrats - 62 Republicans - 3 Other - 1 Did Not Vote Democrats - 4 Republicans - 5

Sorry to cloud the debate with actual facts, but one can conclude the following.

A majority of Democrats in both houses supported the Patriot Act. It was not unanimously supported by the Republicans.

(Opinion mode on) While it may be a flawed and very scary piece of legislation, it was not the Republican power grab that Mr. Gore suggests. Rather it is an ill- considered, flawed piece of reactionary lawmaking that should have been appealed long ago. And if Mr. Gore is so opposed to the Patriot Act, and not just spewing so much political rhetoric, why has he not filed suit against it? Just my 2 cents worth.

Actually, when I moved up here, it took a good six months to get aclimated to the altitude. Mostly harmless stuff like dry nose, bigger thirst and it knocked a full second off my hundred yard dash time.

Seriously, one fun aspect of living in a National Park is meeting lots of foreign tourists, usually on a trail back in the woods somewhere. There people are pretty friendly because you are ten or 15 miles back from the road. On ocassion politics would come up.

More or less I would try to support the American postition on world affairs, but I always used the least bombast I could muster. This has caused me some internal stress, because it has become so difficult to defend our actions.

Anyhow, I say to one and all, come on up and spend some money here. Better then Disneyland.

.../V

Strange comment. Don't see where it contributes anything to the discussion.

Guy bashes Colorado. I defend it as a bastion of liberty and patriotism. My response seems proper.

.../V

Kurt. I am serious about defending American values. It is worth the time and effort if there is an audience. I think there is. Spending half an hour composing responses that a hundred people might read is realistic.

Spending days to respond to Al's blizzard of e-mail challenges is not cost effective. Plus he took a very offensive tone which clicked off any sympathy for his positions.

If you want to ask me questions, ask politely.

One question he ask was, "Name one time where Bush has lied to Americans." He asked it in a very in your face manner. How does one respond to such a question? You can't. You know the person asking it has some blinders on and that answering it is a total waste of breath.

I did find an article on the Internet that layed out all the lies in a pretty detailed manner. That was my second e-mail, or perhaps third, to Al.. I sent him the URL. He got so pissed that he blocked me after that. Guy thinks I am retired and have time for his BS. Not so.

And when I told him I didn't have time to deal with his blizzard of twenty e-mails (maybe only 15, I forget), well that made him very angry.

Those are the facts as I recall them. Oh yes, I haven't blocked him. So Al can send me messages. I probably will not respond, but at least the gateway is open.

I do like his old kit reviews. He can ask me about old model kits, I have a few in my closet. To those messages, if they should arrive, I will respond. "Hey Vess, you got an old Fruitbat lying around." Can you get a few scans for me? Sure, I would help him with that.

I do have some old HisAirDec decals that may have historical interest. I have the very first IPMS P-51 decal of Dallas Doll, or it was close to the first. Had invasion stripes and olive drab glare panel for the nose. At the time, 1961?, I thought it really cool. Came in two scales as I recall.

So Al, let me know if I can assist with you with old model research. I mention it here, cause that is the only way I can reach you.

..../V

Thanks Mr. Plastic. Another 10 Democrat votes for 2004.

You have one misconception. I am not particularly a liberal. I am a concerned citizen. Best to call me a moderate.

According to you,

I yap I bore I am stupid I write crap I am a simpleton I elicit tears

Pretty impressive, no? I must be a rare talent to be able to do all that. It is nice to be so appreciated. ..../V

the

As just one individual non-American I would say; skip the explanation and cast a good vote at your next election. I wish I could vote too but I'm not entitled to. Altough I think I should be. Because my life too is affected by who is in charge of your country. Not only when foreign policy is concerned, but also internal affairs over here. When someone in Washington pulls a string, my current government starts to dance....

Interesting thought I just had.

Conservatives are not the people who have made this a great country. They all stayed home when the "liberals" of the day took a Kentucky rifle in one hand and a Bible in another and crossed the Alleganies into the Ohio Territory to settle the new land, face hostile Indians and build a better life. Daniel Boone and the Scots/Irish dirt farmers who followed him were liberals.

Liberals are risk takers, visionaries, dreamers, wealth creators. Conservatives are old mother hens who are afraid to make waves.

I could go on.

Liberals sailed to Plymouth Rock. Conservatives stayed home. Liberals stood up at Bunker Hill. Conservatives fled to Canada. Liberals freed the slaves. Conservatives shackled them. Liberals went to Texas to take on the Mexicans. Conservatives grew cotton. Liberals believe monkeys were our ancestors. Conservatives think Dan is a cool monkey. Liberals penetrated the Rockies in search of beaver. Conservatives wore the hats back in NYC. Liberals wrote the Constitution. Conservatives trample it.

I could go on, but you get the point.

Flash forward to today. All this has been spinned around 180 degrees. Liberals were the radicals. Now the conservatives are.

Today the conservatives like Bibles and Kentucky Rifles. Conservatives think they are good at nation building. Conservatives want affirmative action killed off. Conservatives will pollute the air for profit. The Muslim clerics are conservatives, for heavens sake.

Liberals nutured the land into productivity. Liberals built the great canals and railroads. Liberals wrote the great American novels, built the Empire State Building and the Hoover Dam, gave us our poetry and jazz and blues music. Liberals showed us how to fly. Yes, liberals took the Israeli desert and made it blossom.

Being conservatives is easy to become, once the liberals hand you a great nation on a platter.

All this can be confusing. For example, how come Sierra Clubbers are considered liberals and oil men are conservatives? One would think just the opposite. You conserve the air, water, land, trees, not visa versa. To drill for oil, you gamble all your money on a possible dry hole; that is what risk takers, dreamers, visionaries do.

It is all topsy turvy anymore.

Vess Irvine Estes Park, Colorado, USA.

Maybe after you start filing a US federal income tax return. And register for Selective Service. And learn something about our Constitution. Etc, etc. You know, the kinds of responsibilities that go with being a US citizen.

OTOH you could immigrate to the Socialist Peoples' Republic of California and get a driver's license there. I'm pretty sure they have a 'motor voter' law.

Sounds to me like your complaint should be with *your* government......

"Al Superczynski" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

No thanks. I'm afraid that if I voice my opinion there, and the governor doesn't like it he will kick my ass. Also I take politics too seriously for 'motor voter' laws.

They are, but your elections are sooner than mine, and the effect will be the same. Besides that no matter which government I have, my tiny country will always be more or less dependent of the bigger political forces in the world. I hope for less on the territory of moral values and law in the future.

"Bassie Adriaensen" wrote

We wouldn't want it any other way.

KL

"Kurt Laughlin" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com...

I know, that's why I want to vote. To indemnify yours to start with.

"Bassie Adriaensen" wrote

Emigrate - "vote with your feet" - and apply for US citizenship. We are happy to contribute to the brain drain of other countries.

KL

"Kurt Laughlin" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com...

...and resistance is futile right?

"Bassie Adriaensen" wrote

More or less. Those who don't want to come over here and benefit will eventually end up being steam-rollered culturally, economically, or militarily. I like the first one the most, because our Government does practically nothing to promote culture - either domestically or internationally. It's your countrymen who WANT McDonalds, Britney Spears, and reruns of Dallas that make it all happen.

Oh well.

KL

"Kurt Laughlin" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com...

Fortunately that's not entirely true. My countrymen are still very capable of rejecting 'foreign' culture if they really don't want it. It has happened before that some enterprising American came to conquer the Dutch market with a product that ended up as a total failure here.

"Bassie Adriaensen" wrote

Your example does nothing to make my statement untrue or "not entirely true". I said it was natives who wanted American culture who made it successful. You noted that if the natives "really don't want" something, it won't be successful. Wow, you must be kidding me.

Interesting that rejection of American culture is rare enough to be noteworthy. What kind of products were these? Personal hygiene, soap, deodorant, toothbrushes, things like that?

KL

Well, you can't so get over it.

"The world would be a much simpler place if every one could pick and choose their obligations, but we can't and we shouldn't." Major Charles W. Whittlesey

perhaps if we withheld all these horrible products of american culture... Americans invented the practical airplane,let's not let anyone else have them.Then no more planes in our buildings... And I'm sure you guys wish you still had polio...who needs that vaccine. Oh and hell yeah let's remove computers...Apple,IBM and Microsoft could probably stay afloat just selling in the U.S. At least you guys can still claim war...americans weren't smart enough to invent that...We did do a lot of your fighting for you,I'm sure we could ask the losers of the last few to reconquer you,so you don't have to thank us for helping you.

Sorry. I'd like to, but Algore (the commie/bore) was right. Global warming has melted the polar ice caps and raised the sea level so high I've drown.