ARSA info request for Izzy

Iz wrote: << do your quotes ever have any relationship what the author actually said? >>
He said that elections are an option that is "always on the table". I take that
to mean that ARSA could institute elections at some future date. What other meaning could that phrase have?
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Almost never.
de?lu?sion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-lzhn) n.
1. a. The act or process of deluding. b. The state of being deluded.
2. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand. 3. Psychiatry. A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote:

Which I invite him to do. As should you :)
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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RayDunakin wrote:

no, what I said is

( I also previously asked you this )

- iz
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I never remarked on entrenched leadership, I remarked on entrenched leadership of a specific nature
if a leadership is effective, its entrenchment is desireable
entrench, v. tr.
2. To fix firmly or securely:
- iz
RayDunakin wrote:

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Iz wrote: << I never remarked on entrenched leadership, I remarked on entrenched leadership of a specific nature if a leadership is effective, its entrenchment is desireable >>
Translation: "It's good when it's my guy, and it's bad when it's your guy."
Man, this Weasel Words dictionary is really coming in handy!
;)
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote:

delusion (P)Pronunciation Key(d-lzhn) n.
1. a. The act or process of deluding. b. The state of being deluded.
2. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand. 3. Psychiatry. A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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some
the
and
Blindly beat your dead horse Ray. Go ahead... beat it again. If you hit it hard enough, it might move... but then is it really the horse?
In a VOLUNTEER effort, members (recipents) receive freely of the work of the VOLUNTEERS...
Where have they (the basic members) any claim whatsoever to dictate the management of such, unless they are actually a part of the volunteer work going on?
~ Duane Phillips.
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Duane Phillips wrote: << In a VOLUNTEER effort, members (recipents) receive freely of the work of the VOLUNTEERS... >>
What does volunteering have to do with anything? TRA is also a volunteer organization. So is NAR. So is RRS, and most other non-profit/private organizations.
<< Where have they (the basic members) any claim whatsoever to dictate the management of such, unless they are actually a part of the volunteer work going on? >>
The fact remains that the rank and file members have no say, and are in fact discouraged from it.
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RayDunakin wrote:

discouraged from what Ray, speaking?
now you are really just making stuff up!
in my experience, the cooperative contribution of members is one of our greatest assets.
- iz
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Iz wrote: << discouraged from what Ray, speaking? >>
Discouraged from having any say in the organization. You and Duane have both said that "non-volunteering" members do not have a right to have any input in the organization.
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I don't know what you mean by "say". Regardless of a "right" to do so, any member can offer their perspective, communicate concerns, etc. Or are you referring to an absolute ability to influence, control or govern?
if so, I personally do not consider that desireable as I have stated before. An absolute ability of members to influence would allow the organizations vision to be compromised by vigorous lobbyist.
I have more confidence in JW, than I do in something established through some consensus. It is an old tactic, to enroll members with a specific political agenda in order to influence "elections" and co-opt the leadership.
thank you, but no thank you
- iz
RayDunakin wrote:

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both
in
You are comparing the STRUCTURE of ARSA to TRA. They don't have the same structure. The word volunteer was a futile attempt on you, Ray, to show the difference between a paying membership entity, and one that is not, and the respective responsibilities to the membership of each group.... but you know this.
While member input may be received by ARSA, it does not have to react, as it does not have that structure, and no member funding. This does not mean that it does not listen. ARSA's mission nor it's goals will be changed by the movement of membership in or out. There are no regular legal reporting requirements on this organization.
TRA on the other hand, does have to answer up to how it handles it's operations and money, by law.
So you say that a member who belongs to both has no right to speak, just because the two organizations are different.
I know you have problems with arrogant and brash Izzy. He writes and writes, so you have many ways to attack. Yes, I know it was a powerful major mistake he made on the post of the NAR President recently. He has not probably heard that last of that yet, despite the formal public apology.
*However*,
You know full well exactly how ARSA operates, and in fact, I believe you don't give a hoot about how it is actually run. But you and George demanded of Izzy what you both know all along you can get from the web site. To deny this, you insult the intelligence of many. It may be true that ARSA doesn't stack up on several levels that you feel are important. It may be also true that you disagree with how another group's actions may affect your enjoyment of the hobby.
But still you play falsely the ignorant counter-attack as defense for TRA. Sadly, this only keeps the TRA issues sore, and more sore, and again, insults the intelligence of many.
Refusal to acknowlege such will continue to hurt TRA, REGARDLESS of what ARSA does or does not become. The issues will still exist in TRA, until they are corrected.
Classical denial when cornered, "well who needs other people anyway", and "you cannot talk because you are: not perfect/not a member/have other club memberships/are a moron/etc... etc...".
I do not believe that you fully believe that all is well in TRA land. And since *nobody* is perfect, that same sentiment probably applies to all the groups.
Personally, I do recognize the problems that can happen when the membership has no guaranteed written and publicized way to interact and solve differences (or refuses to follow those ways). Many a valiant culture in the past started with benevelent leaders who were followed on by tyrants.
At this point, ARSA is basically a non-entity, but they have an awesome paradigm and focus WRT motors... and I personally feel that motors are the lifeline of this hobby. Any restriction to that, whether self inflicted or external, weakens the hobby. So of course I am inclined to join and support and further these aims as much as my busy life enables me to.
Jerry posted something about ARSA's position recently that was rather insightful... he mentioned that ARSA, because of it's non-entity status, had more ability to lobby on behalf of the hobby, than do our non-profit organizations, due to reasons legal. So just maybe there is purpose for all of the groups to be here, now.
I think I must re-think my particular abstention from NAR and TRA, shortcomings and all.
I personally would be saddened to see any of the orgs go away. It would be stupidity, plain and simple. I would rather see them grow and prosper in championing the hobby.
I just hope and pray that NAR and TRA will come around on their pre-reqs. for motor certifications.
~ Duane Phillips.
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Duane wrote: << While member input may be received by ARSA, it does not have to react, as it does not have that structure, and no member funding. This does not mean that it does not listen. ARSA's mission nor it's goals will be changed by the movement of membership in or out. >>
I understand that, I'm just not convinced it's a good thing, or that limiting member control is a bad thing. But to each his own.
<< So you say that a member who belongs to both has no right to speak, just because the two organizations are different. >>
I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying it's hypocritical, or at least contradictory, to trash TRA for allegedly failing to listen to the members while simultaneously praising ARSA for its lack of member control. I also think it's contradictory to be so obsessed about allegations pertaining to TRA's bylaws, while simultaneously praising ARSA's lack of bylaws.
<< I know you have problems with arrogant and brash Izzy. >>
Actually, I'm trying to keep my focus on the actions, not the individual. I may not always succeed, but that is my goal.
<< You know full well exactly how ARSA operates, and in fact, I believe you don't give a hoot about how it is actually run.>>
I knew next to nothing about ARSA and how it is run prior to this discussion; and yes, I don't really give a hoot. They can run it any way they want. So can any other organization.
<<But you and George demanded of Izzy what you both know all along you can get from the web site.>>
I haven't even looked at their website. The only reason this stuff came up is because of Izzy's allegations of "secrecy" in TRA. George pointed out that much of the detail Izzy (and Jerry and Cato) were demanding from TRA was equally unavailable. Iz didn't help that impression any by his refusal to answer directly and plainly. Yes, the structure of ARSA eventually came out, but it was like pulling teeth to get it. Another case of hypocrisy or simply a contradictory lapse in logic?
<<It may be true that ARSA doesn't stack up on several levels that you feel are important.>>
I don't really care about how ARSA stacks up. I simply want guys like Iz and Cato to apply the same standards to ARSA that they apply to others.
<<It may be also true that you disagree with how another group's actions may affect your enjoyment of the hobby. >>
I have no problem with ARSA, per se. I do have a problem with the baseless allegations of "sabotage" by Wickman and Iz, and the senseless reposting of Cato's old drivel. All of this is clearly an attempt to make TRA look bad and shift blame for the failure of Enzi's bill.
<< The issues will still exist in TRA, until they are corrected. >>
Posting public attacks while avoiding any effort to effect real change is NOT the way to correct perceived problems.
<< I do not believe that you fully believe that all is well in TRA land. >>
Do I believe TRA or its leadership is perfect? Of course not. Do I agree with every decision or action of the organization? No. Do I believe that things are as bad as Iz or Cato make them out to be? Not even close! Do I believe that publicly trashing TRA is the way to correct things? No!
<< At this point, ARSA is basically a non-entity, but they have an awesome paradigm and focus WRT motors... and I personally feel that motors are the lifeline of this hobby. Any restriction to that, whether self inflicted or external, weakens the hobby. >>
I understand the arguments in favor of eliminating motor certs, but I'm not convinced that those arguments outweigh the benefits of motor certification. Nor am I convinced (or even seen any evidence) that regulating authorities would not be even more restrictive of the hobby if motor certs were eliminated.
<< Jerry posted something about ARSA's position recently that was rather insightful... he mentioned that ARSA, because of it's non-entity status, had more ability to lobby on behalf of the hobby, than do our non-profit organizations, due to reasons legal. >>
I think he is dead wrong in that regard. If that were true, there would be no lobbying organizations. Organizations have much more political influence than individuals. Show me even one group that has been politically successful as a "non-entity".
<< I personally would be saddened to see any of the orgs go away. It would be stupidity, plain and simple. I would rather see them grow and prosper in championing the hobby. >>
I agree.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote a whole bunch of contradictory and wrong crap:
Too much to even bother with.

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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as it

that
limiting
And I knew you understood it all along... it just took 20 posts to get you to say as much.

just
think
The two don't relate. ARSA isn't establishing something and then not delivering on that premise. Membership control applies to one and not the other, so your point is lost.

I may

you
discussion;
can
<weg>
get
is
much
equally
George was wrong. He claimed to have looked at the web site and said that it was useless. He only desired to bait. True, I think Izzy had some clenched teeth baiting going on also, but what does that say of your motivations here?

it
What would you do if you just started 15 threads, and wanted to be able to spend time dealing with the topic, but instead get demanded to steer your time sucking on something you know is bait?
What happened there was a war. And all of us lost a lot of time messing with it... still are...?
You you think *nothing* whatsoever of the protocol of posting the same thing to every post Izzy initiated "appropriate"? So then Izzy answers the question in one post, and ALL the other posts look like he is *hiding* and being secretive. It WAS answered early on... but you two are still at it. That is hypocritical.

feel are

and
They are. So far, ARSA does not represent anything that it does not live up to. TRA however is quite the opposite... but can be corrected... but still has not... hence... the issues stand.

may
of
and
I blame a couple of congress persons. It was a good _very_ good and valiant effort. Given the opportunity, it would have been a sin not to try.
To stall as they did, the other 2 orgs failed their memberships. There was plenty of notice to consider the issue and be ready to act, but they did not. I do not blame them for the original bill being lost, but I do hold that they did not act in the membership's best interest. And it is very apparent to me that they went out of their way, at least initially, to not act, due to arrogance, and have to this day (to my knowlege) refused to acknowlege any efforts of ARSA or John Wickman. They did not condone John and Senator Enzi doing this, and were slow to get over pride, and act. In fact, in some cases, they branded it their own. It is classical reaction for an entity which is losing it's grip of control on the masses. If they don't cater to the needs of the membership, then they lose control. It is how TRA came to exist... it is how ARSA came to exist... after TRA turned out to be legally worse than it's mother.
With such *clear* signposts in the history of the hobby, how can one say there is not a problem?
I am sure you will try...
Here you have two of the most intelligent long-time motor tradesmen and manufacturers (Jerry and John), who both have long technical histories in motor manufacture, trying show corrective course in what are the *real* issues, and they are the most outcast from the main body of the hobby. But it will not stay like that... the advent of ARSA proves that, at the very least.
- Class 3 thinking blindly follows, is not willing to volunteer to themselves to risk anything, and tires quickly of any crusade.
- Class 2 thinking acknowleges inconsistencies, but is powerless, or unwilling to do anything about it. These are fence sitters, and if they don't move up to Class 1, are always eventually dragged down by/with Class 3.
- Class 1 thinking acknowleges inconsistencies, and has the knowlege and will to do something about it, but is most endangered, and must be very careful... lest the class 3 poplulace mindlessly tread him down. Usually, Class 1 has limited windows of opportunity to lead the Classes or be trampled by them. Unwillingness to act for any reason settles them back to Class 2. Rarely to they sustain long term Class 1 recognition, unless they are dead, and are finally acknowleged as such post mortem.
I am somewhat plagurizing somebody, but I forget who... Henry David Thoureau maybe? My college days evade me...

NOT
That is a blantant falsehood Ray. You know he is trying to effect change. The first step is saying something about it... and try to be heard. That not working, the next step is accumulate evidence, and try to convince... that not working, then things get dropped, or they get ugly. People begin to leave and go elsewhere. Courts may be involved. Peoples feelings get hurt.

with
are
that
This statement only has merit *if* the accusations are false. If they are not false, then it speaks more to the inaction of the org in that they didn't/won't/can't change, and remedy the situation.

not
Most people are not talking about *eliminating* certs... nor am I. Only changing them to the most hobby needful purposes of safety and standard performance. NOT external manufacture compliance and transport.

certification.
eliminated.
had
no
than
as a

Martin Luther King, and his followers. "I have a dream..."
George Washington.
The group that pushed the Bill of Rights, headed by a guy by the name of Issac (not that it helps us much now after 200 years of shreading). It took 16 years for all states to comply with and ratify it.
Flouridation of my water by common ballot, from some group that thought they were doing the community a service, and talked to many to signing petitions they didn't understand the consequences of until AFTER the flouridation was in my water... (grrrrrrr, we're gonna run that one again on the ballot this year).
Citizen action groups can do much *if* they really try. Trouble is, most fall out when the going gets tough.
~ Duane Phillips.
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That precise tactic has been used by TRA and NAR leaders and advocates for years to attack people critical of their foibles obvious to the casual observer.

Gross denial?

Most association members.

I must be fixated and insane!

We are almost there.

Exactly, but only because both TRA and NAR do it so wrongly and arbitrarily they cannot be trusted to do it at all. Even DOT and ATF agree!!!!!
And that goes against the common perception they want to throttle rocketry any way they can. I think they are just tired of TRA and NAR annoying them regularly.

Mere Jerry
--
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Duane wrote: << What would you do if you just started 15 threads, and wanted to be able to spend time dealing with the topic, but instead get demanded to steer your time sucking on something you know is bait? >>
With topics such as "cleaning house", and the introductory text, it's clear that those threads were thinly veiled digs at TRA.
<< You you think *nothing* whatsoever of the protocol of posting the same thing to every post Izzy initiated "appropriate"? >>
I think it was rather pompous of Izzy to act like the moderator of an unmoderated forum. As for posting the same thing in each thread, that was George, not me.
<< So then Izzy answers the question in one post, and ALL the other posts look like he is *hiding* and being secretive. It WAS answered early on... but you two are still at it. >>
No, his early "answers" were brief comments describing what ARSA _isn't_, without revealing much about what it _is_.
<< To stall as they did, the other 2 orgs failed their memberships.>>
There was no "stalling". There were brief delays while pending lawyers' approval. These were fully justified and their effect on the letter writing campaign was insignificant.
<<There was plenty of notice to consider the issue and be ready to act, but they did not.>>
Notice? What kind of notice? Were they given the text of the bill, or the specifics of the requested actions, in advance? On the contrary, even when Wickman gave his word that he would consult with them prior to requesting action, he still failed to do so.
<<I do not blame them for the original bill being lost, but I do hold that they did not act in the membership's best interest.>>
You're entitled to your opinion, of course. But I hold that they _were_ acting in our best interest.
<<And it is very apparent to me that they went out of their way, at least initially, to not act, due to arrogance...>>
It's no secret that they were opposed to taking legislative action at that time. This was on the advice from professionals, and was proven to be the correct course by the (predictable) outcome of the effort. There was no way that Wickman or Enzi could maintain control of the bill once the rest of the politicians got ahold of it, and the very existence of the bill could have (may have already) jeopardized the lawsuit.
<<...and have to this day (to my knowlege) refused to acknowlege any efforts of ARSA or John Wickman.>>
My guess is they felt no need to credit someone who refused to cooperate, didn't keep his word, and was constantly at odds with them. In retrospect that may have been a tactical mistake.
<<It is classical reaction for an entity which is losing it's grip of control on the masses. If they don't cater to the needs of the membership, then they lose control. >>
There you go again with the double standard. "It's bad if TRA doesn't cater to the membership, but it's good if ARSA doesn't cater to the membership".
However, I'd say that TRA has done, and is doing, a good job of catering to, and protecting the needs of, the membership.
<< Here you have two of the most intelligent long-time motor tradesmen and manufacturers (Jerry and John), who both have long technical histories in motor manufacture, trying show corrective course in what are the *real* issues, and they are the most outcast from the main body of the hobby. >>
Technical knowledge of motor making is irrelevant to the political realities of government regulation.
I wrote: "Posting public attacks while avoiding any effort to effect real change is NOT the way to correct perceived problems.
Duane replied: << That is a blantant falsehood Ray.>>
No it isn't. If you've read Izzy's posts, then you've seen for yourself his refusal to work within TRA. He even refuses to post in TRA forums.
<<You know he is trying to effect change. >>
He's trying to effect the destruction of an organization that he disagrees with.
<< Most people are not talking about *eliminating* certs... nor am I. >>
Izzy has stated that he doesn't believe in motor certs.
<< Only changing them to the most hobby needful purposes of safety and standard performance. NOT external manufacture compliance and transport. >>
Obviously, there are differences of opinion on this and probably always will be. Trashing TRA isn't going to change that.
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A bunch of stuff that finally winds down to this:
Izzy right, or Izzy wrong?
Conceded, however, that the animosity during the bill introduction was a two-way problem.
I feel that fundamentally, he IZ right. And I feel there IZ a serious problem that needs to be addressed, as it is what got us here. But hey, who knows... maybe working through this struggle will be what actually propells us forward like never before. And I believe that IZ possible too. I also believe that hosting the line of questioning IZ did was best here, not hidden internally, because it is outside where you learn what is keeping people from joining. The more people there are, the more launches there are, the more stuff gets bought, the more the everyone gains all around.
Point of fact: The forum served a purpose for me. I have decided to join all three (pending funds and acceptance), as I realized during this whole line of conversation, what my particular hold-backs were, and I now find value in all three.
I will give nod to one more of your statements today:

For more reasons than one.
But I leave it at that.
Good night.
~ Duane Phillips.
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RayDunakin wrote:

there are admittedly only three of the many threads that have any relationship to TRA
action: cleaning house action: putting cards on the table action: restore talent
their purpose was to enable the discussion to be organized, rather than it prevading all threads. Readers could then choose to participate in, or ignore, those threads as they wished
the large majority of the threads are generic to rocketry at large

many RMR readers elect not to participate because of the chaos. I am seeking to bring some order to a small group of threads. It does not prevent anyone from poating anything they wish to any other threads, or even to insert noise into the 'brainstorming/action:' framework - but that be nothing less than spamming.
any newsgroup has a overriding topic, and good netizens label stray posts with "OT:" in the subjects. So also it is reasonable to expect that a thread content has some relationship with their subjects, especially when this has been stated as an express purpose.
to willfully disregard, in a consistent fashion, the stated purpose and subject of the thread framework is clearly an intent to disrupt communication and annoy participants.

they did much more than simply "stall". On many occasions they used ROL announcements and other venues to effect a 'standing order' not to take any action "at this time", which was indefinitely in some cases. At least one initiative was entirely unsupported by using this tactic.
additionally, at the most critical juncture (the Senate Judiciary Committee meeting), JW had called for rocketeers to write the Chairman and all the other committee members. This was in recognition of the FACT that committee members act on behalf of the nation as a whole, not exclusively in the interests of their home states. [otherwise every committee would require 50 members, lest the committee decisions reflect the interests of a handful of states. Which states should decide Defense issues, for example? ]
yet when the TRA/NAR alliance finally made the request to their memberships to write letters, they aked only people in Committee members particular states to take action; and strongly discouraged people from other states from participating as they would be ignored, devalued, or even be a source of "annoyance" to the Senators.
as a result of this policy, the opportunity to demonstrate to all SJC members how many were affected by their decisions, and what their specific arguments were in support of S.724 was lost.
this was the single most destructive position TRA/NAR took during the various campaigns.
another example of "undermining" that was not limited to mere "delays", was TRA's possession of the DOJ/BATFE letter to Senator Hatch, SJC Charirman. They had obtained this by whatever means, yet failed to respond in a timely fashion, failed to notify the membership of the opportunity to and importance of responding, and failed to forward it to JW so ARSA and its supporters could act.
John eventually obtained the letter through other channels, but several days later, and just 3 days before [what was to be] the final hearing. Even so, John responded substantively under the considerably shortened time he had available. His responses ultimately resulted in the DOJ withdrawing the letter, but only after the SJC was influenced to allow the Hatch-Kohl substitution to take place.
Had JW been given this letter by TRA immediately, and had TRA supported JW's call for an "all states" fax/call campaign to every SJC member, I firmly believe the outcome would be very different [i.e.; the Hatch-Kohl substitution would never have taken place, and the matter would have continued to be deliberated in the SJC, or sent to the floor of the Senate without the SJC's recommendation.
these are the sources of indignation among those who understand the reality of what actually transpired during these campaigns

this is false. They were aware of John's intent before it was drafted, but insisted that control the content. Their control would have resulted in a bill unrecognizable from SB 724, with weight limits that would constitute implicit agreement with the BATFE's position that APCP was dangerous (if not explosive), and that BATFE oversight was necessary.
SB 724's justifiable blanket exemption for non-explosive rocketry materials is the only way to expell the BATFE

no, they were acting in their best interests. A blanket exemption would have implications for the NFPA codes that maintain the TRA/NAR franchise on motor and user certifications. If rocketry materials and the rockets that house them are exempt by virtue of them not being dangerous, what would the justification for those codes be? They would be reduced to what they should be - fire codes, to provide reasonable protection to people and property from a flammable solid.

as I said earlier in this post, had TRA/NAR not undermined the effort, and had they acted to represent the interests of all rocketeers faithfully, we would have had far more control going onto the floor, and would have the grass-roots support (and the ability to weild it in a focused, responsive fashion) throughout its life in the Senate and beyond (to the HR and the President's desk).
to be perfectly candid, and I know alot of people don't want to hear this, but TRA/NAR cannot afford to see the lawsuit through to trial and possible appeals. Look at the "burn rate" we have had since the start of the suit, and it is still in preliminary hearings. It has nothing to do with the legislative initiatives, it is just a DOJ/BATFE tactic to drain TRA/NAR member resources - a battle of attrition. Mark my words. SB 724 was necessary and timely.
there also is the question that, given past misdeeds of TRA leadership (many of a fiscal nature that have yet to be presented), it is not unlikely that legal fund, just like the insurance premiums paid by members, would be subjected to some "creative accounting". Or would TRA be willing to publish an independent audit of the last ten years?
[ this is over your head, Ray, so don't evern try ]

whatever their reason, their failure to do so elicited a fair amount of criticism from their membership

how? by fraudulently certifying motors, and putting them at risk with voided insurance?
how many years Ray, how many YEARS have members complained about HPR! How has TRA catered to and protected their needs? You've seen some other 'TRA exiles' here ask what was the method by which they were going to be compensated for lost issues, since they had been deprived of any mmebership to "extend"?
no, I suggest that HPR remains a thorn in their side for the same reason that TRA HQ is still at Bruce Kelly's house, enabling his tax deductions for a liberal assortment of "facilities and services".
just perhaps it is because Bruce Kelly has the goods on them, Ray. Just perhaps they are in a deal with the devil that they can't extricate themselves from, despite years of membership outcry.
they are corrupt, Ray, and the members have to see to it that they clean house to save the organization

it is not possible with the current leadership, and the forum policies reflect their wishes. I was a hairs breadth from being ejected from the forum on at least two occassions (and will not go into the details out of regard for David W.). But clearly TRA listserv is not a venue for the kind of energetic reform that is needed.

no, I am trying to focus the attention of members and others on the problems so they can be addressed in an effort to save the organization

I said there is merit in having a safety and performance testing, analogous to a Underwriters Laboratories listing, so that consumers can have objective information upon which to base purchase decisions. I do not they should be mandatory.
I do not believe in compliance verification as a integral part of mandated motor certs. Some consumers may feel that such verification is desireable ... fine. Just don't make verification by a hobby organization a condition of allowing products to market.

focusing attention will enable people to make their own decisions as to the credibility of the information presented, and then they will either act or not as they are so inclined. But information can only benefit the process of resolving the problems.
- iz
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