I expect that we will do what we have been doing, and do something else besides. I don't have any specifics at this juncture.
I don't suggest that it is. I am stating it as an acknowldgement of the choice that [potential] members have. You ask "why should someone join", or "why should someone join when such and such is true", or "... when such and such is not true".
I say, simply, "make a choice". That is what John is saying, just make a choice.
[and I also pointed out that to choose ARSA membership has no cost, and has no risk]
He said that elections are an option that is "always on the table". I take that to mean that ARSA could institute elections at some future date. What other meaning could that phrase have?
Discouraged from having any say in the organization. You and Duane have both said that "non-volunteering" members do not have a right to have any input in the organization.
I don't know what you mean by "say". Regardless of a "right" to do so, any member can offer their perspective, communicate concerns, etc. Or are you referring to an absolute ability to influence, control or govern?
if so, I personally do not consider that desireable as I have stated before. An absolute ability of members to influence would allow the organizations vision to be compromised by vigorous lobbyist.
I have more confidence in JW, than I do in something established through some consensus. It is an old tactic, to enroll members with a specific political agenda in order to influence "elections" and co-opt the leadership.
You are comparing the STRUCTURE of ARSA to TRA. They don't have the same structure. The word volunteer was a futile attempt on you, Ray, to show the difference between a paying membership entity, and one that is not, and the respective responsibilities to the membership of each group.... but you know this.
While member input may be received by ARSA, it does not have to react, as it does not have that structure, and no member funding. This does not mean that it does not listen. ARSA's mission nor it's goals will be changed by the movement of membership in or out. There are no regular legal reporting requirements on this organization.
TRA on the other hand, does have to answer up to how it handles it's operations and money, by law.
So you say that a member who belongs to both has no right to speak, just because the two organizations are different.
I know you have problems with arrogant and brash Izzy. He writes and writes, so you have many ways to attack. Yes, I know it was a powerful major mistake he made on the post of the NAR President recently. He has not probably heard that last of that yet, despite the formal public apology.
*However*,
You know full well exactly how ARSA operates, and in fact, I believe you don't give a hoot about how it is actually run. But you and George demanded of Izzy what you both know all along you can get from the web site. To deny this, you insult the intelligence of many. It may be true that ARSA doesn't stack up on several levels that you feel are important. It may be also true that you disagree with how another group's actions may affect your enjoyment of the hobby.
But still you play falsely the ignorant counter-attack as defense for TRA. Sadly, this only keeps the TRA issues sore, and more sore, and again, insults the intelligence of many.
Refusal to acknowlege such will continue to hurt TRA, REGARDLESS of what ARSA does or does not become. The issues will still exist in TRA, until they are corrected.
Classical denial when cornered, "well who needs other people anyway", and "you cannot talk because you are: not perfect/not a member/have other club memberships/are a moron/etc... etc...".
I do not believe that you fully believe that all is well in TRA land. And since *nobody* is perfect, that same sentiment probably applies to all the groups.
Personally, I do recognize the problems that can happen when the membership has no guaranteed written and publicized way to interact and solve differences (or refuses to follow those ways). Many a valiant culture in the past started with benevelent leaders who were followed on by tyrants.
At this point, ARSA is basically a non-entity, but they have an awesome paradigm and focus WRT motors... and I personally feel that motors are the lifeline of this hobby. Any restriction to that, whether self inflicted or external, weakens the hobby. So of course I am inclined to join and support and further these aims as much as my busy life enables me to.
Jerry posted something about ARSA's position recently that was rather insightful... he mentioned that ARSA, because of it's non-entity status, had more ability to lobby on behalf of the hobby, than do our non-profit organizations, due to reasons legal. So just maybe there is purpose for all of the groups to be here, now.
I think I must re-think my particular abstention from NAR and TRA, shortcomings and all.
I personally would be saddened to see any of the orgs go away. It would be stupidity, plain and simple. I would rather see them grow and prosper in championing the hobby.
I just hope and pray that NAR and TRA will come around on their pre-reqs. for motor certifications.
Sue a man for a word, Ray. Regardless, the legal status, reporting requirements, and responsibilities to membership are different... but you know this. For all intensive purposes, by your obfuscative definition, I "VOLUNTEER" to continue living today... And I volunteer to continue posting to your volunteered mediocrity of conversation, where you pick apart words but intentionally smother understanding, when everyone knows you know better.
I find your cropping of pertinent conversational background and then posting to such in very... bad... taste.
In your estimation, very little. To others, unfettered but still safe rocketry.
But you and I know it doesn't stop there. Does it?
You are in a time warp. And I also see that your cropping of pertinent conversational background has again limited your ability to respond with meaningful content.
WHEN the time warp catches up to you, you will see another message from me right after the one you just replied to here that begins with:
"Correction inserted in last statement."
... and ends with:
" Yes, it is well known that the freedom to not fly motors which are not on TRA or NAR cert. lists [at regular NAR or TRA events] is well documented. "
I have read a ton on the past of rocketry, and have been in it about 4 years now, and have been watching this group for almost 3. I understood the general inferrence.
I may not know the time or incident of what you speak, but then again I know enough history in general to understand the sentiment just the same.
You may find a very lengthy post I replied to Ray that speaks to this understanding, something to the effect of how many times in history, a benevelent leader is followed on by a tyrant. But then ARSA is still basically a non-entity, isn't it? So it does any structural comparisons are moot.
So am I. I never said anyone was paid, did I? I have in fact stated and acknowleged volunteerism worldwide.
But I also know that you know the legal difference between a non-entity and an incorporated non-profit entity. Yet you make posts to stir the pot with Izzy, and confuse a few people in the process.
So I tried vainly to explain in terms of no $$$ from members and "volunteer" on all levels.
We all know Izzy is not the sum total of ARSA. You were baiting him and riding him for personal/other reasons. And it won't change the fact that there are valid issues that need fixing in the other orgs.
I have no alterior motive. Your line of postings (and that of Ray) lately does.
The very act of joining supports it to a small degree.
Then support them for a change.
Don't make up fantasies of horribilizations and use those fantasies as a basis to criticise them. Use only established fact. ONLY.
You know, like the "TRA bashers" do.
TRA tries to. Seriously.
I have cited examples of Ken Allen being told he would be TRA blackballed if he sold USR motors (no matter what EX numbers were used to make them) and even at unaffiliated launches which he regularly attends.
This threat was reinstated at the LDRS-Lucerne TRA BOD meeting.
Unless you accept the assertion that many of the problems TRA has were brought on by the bylaws and the mismanagement of them. IF you agree with that assertion (or even accept it could be true in some rational example), then having NO by-laws is a preventative measure to avoid those problems.
And any change would be dictated by NEED not by a variety of presuppositions by imperfect people with no legal training or even a basic understanding of corporate law.
TRA,NAR and RRS share one thing in common. They all have "strong personality leaders" (meglomaniacs according to some), and also apply penalties and sanctions against members and vendors arbitrarily and capriciously without a "hearing" as defined in administrative code, or even in Robert's rules of order. These "firms" are operated under the laws and regulations of the state, governing corporations, and these arbitraryandcapricious acts are breaches of those laws. Further each one of them is also a 501-c-3 IRS listed entity or claims to be, and is under further regulations and restrictions, many of which are ethical in nature. Many of which are regularly breached.
As such they are effectively illegal dictatorships for purposes of punative actions, which is the only time such a description is of any real meraning.
If this just gave you an epihany, or you would like it to, contact myself or izzy and we will literally refer you to some (positive and uplifting) cults. You don't have to join or anything, but a weekend of training would be a positive for your garbled mind.
"... dangers.."? Hmmm... we have a bad case of entrenchment syndrome here.
George I've read your posts often on other newsgroups, and usually you do well in terms of logic. Better than me as often as not ;) But here your main argument is seriously misplaced.
Boiled down to basics you are saying: "Any group not structured like our organization must be judged as if it were an organization like ours that is deliberately deviating from the accepted rules and procedures!"
... When the simple fact is that TRA/NRA organizational rules and proceedures, and the concepts behind them, simply don't apply to ARSA.
The rest of your argument boils down to an equally simple statement: "It's an evil dictatorship! Run away!"
And is as equally based on the erroneous assumption that an organization not like the "Big 2" must be bad.
(Hmmm... "Big 2"... Have we finally discovered the origin of the term "Megadeuce"?... :)
This post did not reflect well on your critical thinking abilities, George... and... whatever faults ARSA might have or might develop in the future it isn't the group willingly doing the dance of death with the BATF.
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