ARSA info request for Izzy

In all fairness, the NAR has not taken the "you can't violate NAR rules anywhere, at any time, no matter what launch you are attending" attitude since 1987 when the unworkable "3/48" rule went into place. Less than 4 years later, that too was gone, and NAR was into HPR.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Thank you Jerry for motivating the broken rule that broke the camel's back :)

I think your points concerning structure are valid, Chuck, and I would not have similar concerns to George, save for one issue:

ARSA/John Wickmam is actively promoting federal legislation which will affect everyone. ARSA's goal, as stated on their website; "The Amateur Rocketry Society of America's (ARSA) goal is to enable US citizens to enjoy all forms of amateur rocketry". In the next sentence, ARSA distinguishes "amateur" rocketry from "high power" and "model" rockets and flyers, "Our local societies permit amateur rockets to fly along side high power and model rockets at the same site and at the same time."

The explicit differentiation between forms of sport rocketry by ARSA sets a "red flag" in my mind when it comes to legislative action which will impact all forms of sport rocketry.

I think it is prudent, if not crucial, to understand how and why ARSA develops legislative priorities and action plans, at least. Is ARSA simply a vehicle to promote John Wickman's personal views, priorities, and necessarily (as an amateur rocketry vendor) vested interests? What consideration does ARSA give to model and high power rocketry concerns in it's legislative efforts if a conflict arises between them?

I am an AM advocate. I have built many motors (micrograin and BP in the old days, and sugar motors more recently). I encourage people to learn about and make, if they so desire, their own propellants and motors; propulsion is FUNDAMENTAL to rockets and rocket technology and applications). I am also a member of NAR, which does not promote AM/EX activities. I chose to join because I KNEW that from the get go, understood their position, and was able to determine how and why the organization worked.

I do not belong to ARSA, nor support them, precisely because of the complete lack of published policy and organizational detail; I have NO IDEA what I might be getting into, or what I might be implicitly supporting by allowing ARSA to say they represent me (adding to their "number" base). There is simply no way to make an informed decision regarding ARSA membership.

In the context of Federal legislation, SOME organizational and policy information from ARSA would go a long way in allowing me to decide whether or not to support their legislative endeavors. As it stands, I, personally, can not support ARSA, even as an AM advocate.

Finally, a coherent, thoughtful, and respectable disagreement on ARSA.

I would ask that you repost this also in the thread: Subject: action: organizational structure Dated: 12/3/2003

I inherently like JW. I like what he stands for. I chose to join on the basis of that merit. But your post here is very well done, and I believe represents the feeling of others, but who have not been able to articulate it without improper association to the other crap.

I will add to this and also to the action post these two points that I previously posted of which you just fully expounded on the second point.

"

- It may be true that ARSA doesn't stack up on several [organizational] levels that you feel are important.

- It may be also true that you disagree with how another group's actions may affect your enjoyment of the hobby. "

~ Duane Phillips.

If you look at the text of the legislation it is strongly helpful to all rocket types, MR and HPR included. So those fears are baseless (at this time). Also a majority of ARSA "members" are pro MR and the folks who helped draft the current language are feverishly pro MR and HPR.

Duane Phillips wrote:

It is a problem if it effects non-members as does motor cert irregularities.

Jerry

Iz wrote:

Because it directly harms non-members.

Your learning disability prevents you from understanding that despite being told dozens of times, and why, with evidence.

I understand that, I'm just not convinced it's a good thing, or that limiting member control is a bad thing. But to each his own.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying it's hypocritical, or at least contradictory, to trash TRA for allegedly failing to listen to the members while simultaneously praising ARSA for its lack of member control. I also think it's contradictory to be so obsessed about allegations pertaining to TRA's bylaws, while simultaneously praising ARSA's lack of bylaws.

Actually, I'm trying to keep my focus on the actions, not the individual. I may not always succeed, but that is my goal.

I don't really care about how ARSA stacks up. I simply want guys like Iz and Cato to apply the same standards to ARSA that they apply to others.

I think he is dead wrong in that regard. If that were true, there would be no lobbying organizations. Organizations have much more political influence than individuals. Show me even one group that has been politically successful as a "non-entity".

I agree.

Thanks for the kind words, Duane.

I do not post to the "action: whatever" threads as I try to minimize my participation in what I consider to be troll threads or discussions intended to bring discontent and factioning into the hobby. It's difficult NOT to be involved to some extent, but I try.

For the record; I admire "Rocketry Professional John Wickman's" technical expertise and I appreciate his technical contributions to AM. He might actually get me to experiment with PSAN propellants, in fact. (I have avoided APCP for a couple of personal reasons and my KNCP experiments have not been very productive to this point.) Casper isn't too far from here and I have considered taking his motor classes. My concerns with "ARSA John Wickman" are confined solely to those I outlined in my previous post.

Chuck Stewart wrote:

In article , snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote a whole bunch of contradictory and wrong crap:

Too much to even bother with.

Bamm!... and tu che' (sic?). Now thar's a fine hypocritical post for you Ray! Complete with spin! What you have been whacking on Izzy for, just came out of your mou... er... keyboard (though I cannot actually say just *where* it came from).

But now to the spin --> It isn't TRA's rules that I don't agree with, it is the ability to follow rules in a non arbitrary and capricious way.

Since you conveniently snipped the background of this statement (again)... I just go ahead and re-add it in...

I stated in mock tones: "You may only fly motors from those we say you can." "We don't care if you can *prove* that your motors are safe."

You stated: "You have this same freedom in TRA, but (currently) not at a TRA event."

Now we conclude: "Yes, it is well known that the freedom to not fly motors which are not on TRA or NAR cert. lists [at regular NAR or TRA events] is well documented."

Now, it is "this freedom" to not fly that we hold soo dear, right?

~ Duane Phillips. ... tu che' again... or however spell it.

Right

ROFL.

And I knew you understood it all along... it just took 20 posts to get you to say as much.

The two don't relate. ARSA isn't establishing something and then not delivering on that premise. Membership control applies to one and not the other, so your point is lost.

George was wrong. He claimed to have looked at the web site and said that it was useless. He only desired to bait. True, I think Izzy had some clenched teeth baiting going on also, but what does that say of your motivations here?

What would you do if you just started 15 threads, and wanted to be able to spend time dealing with the topic, but instead get demanded to steer your time sucking on something you know is bait?

What happened there was a war. And all of us lost a lot of time messing with it... still are...?

You you think *nothing* whatsoever of the protocol of posting the same thing to every post Izzy initiated "appropriate"? So then Izzy answers the question in one post, and ALL the other posts look like he is *hiding* and being secretive. It WAS answered early on... but you two are still at it. That is hypocritical.

They are. So far, ARSA does not represent anything that it does not live up to. TRA however is quite the opposite... but can be corrected... but still has not... hence... the issues stand.

I blame a couple of congress persons. It was a good _very_ good and valiant effort. Given the opportunity, it would have been a sin not to try.

To stall as they did, the other 2 orgs failed their memberships. There was plenty of notice to consider the issue and be ready to act, but they did not. I do not blame them for the original bill being lost, but I do hold that they did not act in the membership's best interest. And it is very apparent to me that they went out of their way, at least initially, to not act, due to arrogance, and have to this day (to my knowlege) refused to acknowlege any efforts of ARSA or John Wickman. They did not condone John and Senator Enzi doing this, and were slow to get over pride, and act. In fact, in some cases, they branded it their own. It is classical reaction for an entity which is losing it's grip of control on the masses. If they don't cater to the needs of the membership, then they lose control. It is how TRA came to exist... it is how ARSA came to exist... after TRA turned out to be legally worse than it's mother.

With such *clear* signposts in the history of the hobby, how can one say there is not a problem?

I am sure you will try...

Here you have two of the most intelligent long-time motor tradesmen and manufacturers (Jerry and John), who both have long technical histories in motor manufacture, trying show corrective course in what are the *real* issues, and they are the most outcast from the main body of the hobby. But it will not stay like that... the advent of ARSA proves that, at the very least.

- Class 3 thinking blindly follows, is not willing to volunteer to themselves to risk anything, and tires quickly of any crusade.

- Class 2 thinking acknowleges inconsistencies, but is powerless, or unwilling to do anything about it. These are fence sitters, and if they don't move up to Class 1, are always eventually dragged down by/with Class

- Class 1 thinking acknowleges inconsistencies, and has the knowlege and will to do something about it, but is most endangered, and must be very careful... lest the class 3 poplulace mindlessly tread him down. Usually, Class 1 has limited windows of opportunity to lead the Classes or be trampled by them. Unwillingness to act for any reason settles them back to Class 2. Rarely to they sustain long term Class 1 recognition, unless they are dead, and are finally acknowleged as such post mortem.

I am somewhat plagurizing somebody, but I forget who... Henry David Thoureau maybe? My college days evade me...

That is a blantant falsehood Ray. You know he is trying to effect change. The first step is saying something about it... and try to be heard. That not working, the next step is accumulate evidence, and try to convince... that not working, then things get dropped, or they get ugly. People begin to leave and go elsewhere. Courts may be involved. Peoples feelings get hurt.

This statement only has merit *if* the accusations are false. If they are not false, then it speaks more to the inaction of the org in that they didn't/won't/can't change, and remedy the situation.

Most people are not talking about *eliminating* certs... nor am I. Only changing them to the most hobby needful purposes of safety and standard performance. NOT external manufacture compliance and transport.

certification.

Martin Luther King, and his followers. "I have a dream..."

George Washington.

The group that pushed the Bill of Rights, headed by a guy by the name of Issac (not that it helps us much now after 200 years of shreading). It took

16 years for all states to comply with and ratify it.

Flouridation of my water by common ballot, from some group that thought they were doing the community a service, and talked to many to signing petitions they didn't understand the consequences of until AFTER the flouridation was in my water... (grrrrrrr, we're gonna run that one again on the ballot this year).

Citizen action groups can do much *if* they really try. Trouble is, most fall out when the going gets tough.

~ Duane Phillips.

That precise tactic has been used by TRA and NAR leaders and advocates for years to attack people critical of their foibles obvious to the casual observer.

Gross denial?

Most association members.

I must be fixated and insane!

We are almost there.

Exactly, but only because both TRA and NAR do it so wrongly and arbitrarily they cannot be trusted to do it at all. Even DOT and ATF agree!!!!!

And that goes against the common perception they want to throttle rocketry any way they can. I think they are just tired of TRA and NAR annoying them regularly.

Mere Jerry

Duane wrote: