ARSA info request for Izzy

I didn't see the post so I do not know, but was the posting of his email address "malicious" or simply not thinking through that someone might not want their full email address on rmr?

Like mine ALWAYS is.

Jerry

So, no portion of the lack of communication is your responsibility?

Jerry

Still a mistype. If it were a one man band, it wouldn't have the membership it has. Obviously there is trust, collaboration, and direction endowed in others in ARSA, or it wouldn't have left the house.

It has a Leader, yes... but to say "completely run by" is a huge overstatement. It is in effect several volunteers pooling their time and talents together, with the hope of accomplishing something good.

Whether or not they actually accomplish anything, it is _extremely_ hard to knock down a volunteer effort... unless you are donating part of the type of "cash flow" that is being used... i.e.: you are volunteering and giving your work and are part of the effort.

Merely having membership doesn't exactly rise to the occasion.

~ Duane Phillips.

I do not "prejudge you". I look at each and every post as a monologue.

Hence the wide variance in how I reply to Dunakin for example. He has moments of true insight. I appreciate him for that. But he also has many posts that are lame-ass and illogical and blindly support somebody elses positions without independent thought.

I am opposed to that.

Question authority.

Jerry

"Now you're starting to see how this group operates. Once you've been tagged a "troublemaker" it doesn't matter what you have to say, they just rip you apart. I found Jerry's post, in this case, to be thought-provoking and I am interested in verifying what he says." - Hank Ball

Blindly beat your dead horse Ray. Go ahead... beat it again. If you hit it hard enough, it might move... but then is it really the horse?

In a VOLUNTEER effort, members (recipents) receive freely of the work of the VOLUNTEERS...

Where have they (the basic members) any claim whatsoever to dictate the management of such, unless they are actually a part of the volunteer work going on?

~ Duane Phillips.

It was publicly posted and disclosed, but probably in only one or two posts. I mentioned a concern TRA would skim some as it did for about 5 test stands I raised funds for (100% each skimmed) and as Kelly did for Tripolitan printing bills. (About 30% skimmed)

Very low intelligence.

There's nothing in 1127 etc. that "enables" HPR operations - the codes merely give specifications for safety precautions for such activity.

Any "enabling" would be, not internal to the code, but in the linkage - i.e., language specifically excluding NFPA-compliant consumer rockets from a "definition-for-purposes-of-prohibition" of "fireworks" that would otherwise include such rockets.

-dave w

Hey! I resemble that remark...

David Erbas-White

Of course, I have no idea as to his motivati "...I guess its up to Bunny if he accepts your public apology or not, but it's the "little" things, like what you did to him, which demonstrate character. Having been on the "receiving end" of some of your insinuations and allegations, and having read many, many more, well, the "little" things are adding up into a pretty coherent picture."

As far as you having your e-mail address in a correct syntax within your sig, uh, good job? (I don't know why you pointed that out.)

I respect that it appears that you are attempting to be honest and forthright in your understanding and vision of this matter.

HOWEVER,

It is you who is blind in your defense, if you really think this statement is validly applied to ARSA.

In a VOLUNTEER effort, members (recipients) receive freely of the work of the VOLUNTEERS... and the recipients are required to pay *nada*.

Where have they (the basic members) any claim whatsoever to dictate the management of such, unless they are actually a part of the volunteer work going on?

At this point you have entirely left the road. If TRA did this, they would CEASE TO BE INCORPORATED, and cease to be a legal NON-PROFIT organization, and cease to be receiving member funds. Of course they CANNOT do this without a vote of the membership, because the organization IS supported by member funds.

ARSA, of course is neither of these at this time, so the rest of your comments are of no value, except to illustrate your desire to defray complaints in an organization that does not follow the terms by which it was established, and continues to make arbitrary and capricious decisions, that are not equally applied to all.

Again, if TRA or NAR or any other organization that is legally setup in similar fashion were to stop requiring member fees to join, then you would see 99% of the complaints go away. The only complainers left would be people who complain about how an unsupported organization of volunteers spend their time.

Bells will only ring if ARSA takes on the same paradigm as a corporate non-profit entity, and then violates that responsibility. Otherwise, there is little anyone can say... and this is AS IT SHOULD BE. To do otherwise would break the entire system of incorporation, as it would have no value whatsoever, and equally non-incorporation.

There are no secrets George. ARSA has publicly stated all that applies to their type of organization, right on their web site. This whole line of posts is only attempting to counter-attack a PERSON who has made some accusations on the organization to which you belong, and you are incorrectly trying to compare the two.

I will grant on these same grounds, however, that it would be just as incorrect for anyone to say ARSA does membership and management things better than TRA or NAR, when it does not abide the same structure. NAR and TRA are much more properly compared with one another, as they have the same type of membership paradigms.

As for the respective views on the regulation of consumer rocketry, and the trust factor put into each and every member, however, ARSA kicks butt. It is this aspect that is bringing the thousands of new members to them. And that is something that fairly speaks for itself. I would gladly give 2 to 5 times the membership dues to TRA and/or NAR than they currently require *if* they had a similar attitude.

At an ARSA launch, you can walk up with your rocket and say, "I don't know if my motor is going to work right, and I am using an untested medium." The RSO will say go ahead and fly, but let's move your pad back to *x* safe-distance. The rocket is now safe to *explode* on the pad. It is the level of freedom to learn involved. Not the, "No, sorry, you cannot fly that motor, and if we hear you tried elsewhere, you are gone!" "You may only fly motors from those we say you can." "We don't care if you can

~ Duane Phillips.

Because one might claim the damage was more minimal than the rmr firestorm would imply.

His (Bundick) address is already in a bunch of places in the archives, in posts, in web pages, whatever.

It's not like the address posted was of someone who meticulously keeps his address of the internet.

Jerry

I doubt that.

At minimum you do not display it or daily reinforce the proof of it.

Jerry Irvine wrote in news:01rocket- snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:

Regarding NFPA 1127 and requirement for a LEUP; Jerry can you say "27 CFR 55.141". Or does it no longer apply when you need to disagree with someone?

In addition, I doubt that NAR and TRA insisted on the LEUP provisions of NFPA 1127; I'd guess they had to concede that to BATFE to get agreement, and with the 27 CFR 55.141 exemption, which at the time BATFE accepted as operative, saw it as not a significant concession.

len.

They voted to approve the language in the code. They have a super majority block of votes on the sub committee and the full committee rubber stamps what they approve.

No deniability there.

Never assume.

Jerry

Question authority.

"By simply addressing these concerns head-on the NAR Level I HPR certification card could become the LEUP alternative of the 21st century." - Jerry Irvine

"Corroborative detail designed to lend verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative" - Pooh-Bah, The Mikado

Then why have you made such an issue out of TRA's organizational structure?

With no input from the members.

Nope, the member-driven organization must answer to the will of the members. If that means changing course in some way from the original focus (such as NAR accepting high power), then so be it. It's what the members want. Or were you refering to malcontents who try to force their will on the organization over the wishes of the majority?

If that's the kind of organization you want, fine. You're welcome to it. Just don't expect other organizations or individuals to do the same.

Only two options, "take it or leave it"?

At least a member-driven organization gives you the opportunity to at least try to change things from within. Of course, this does mean your vision has to be supported by a majority of the members. If it doesn't, then you still have the option to leave.

What, you think ARSA is the only organization run by volunteers??

Yeah, then they'd be just like ARSA. What of it??

Here we get to the heart of the matter. You don't want a member-driven organization. You want a dictatorship where you and your fearless leader can force your will on everyone else.

No one is forcing complainers to join or stay. If they don't like paying for membership they can leave and join ARSA, where they will have no voice at all.

How many members does ARSA have? Please note, this is a very simple question that requires a very simple answer.

You have this same freedom in TRA, but (currently) not at a TRA event.

Well, Ray, here's something to think about...

I'm not a member of TRA, nor was I in the past (who knows about the future)? However, since TRA and NAR accept each others motor certifications, I, as an NAR member, have a vested interest in ensuring that TRA motor certifications are conducted in an aboveboard manner. Mismanagement (or even worse, malfeasance) in TRA motor certification can come back and bite the organization that I AM a part of right in the butt.

Is that simple enough?

David Erbas-White

responses inline...

So I cannot offer to support the organization in a financial manner! What an great idea, an independently wealthy rocketry organization! I love it! Buy an ad for rocketry on my behalf, and I'll gladly join!

Along the lines of the time that you spend, trying your darndest to help the cause of rocketry, I would offer my time to ARSA if it would help the entire rocketry community in an open and friendly manner.

I don't care what you acknowledge. I believe you should have said that you would like ME to acknowledge their contributions, or this is just a back-handed attempt at brown-nosing those that you deal with.

What's with this acknowledge stuff? I never said that George can't be taken seriously. Your misdirection has me wondering why you take my innocent post (and it was really intended in the spirit of open inquisitiveness, not to make points or push an agenda) and lead into all this acknowledgement that I have nothing to do with!?!

Sorry, your lack of sleep matters not to me. I just wanted a straight-forward answer to my (and George's) questions.

I didn't ask about TRA. I've been involved with many non-profits, and none are so strange as TRA seems to be. Note I say "seems".

I'd like to, but the evidence on the face of it is underwhelming. And you as a spokesperson (communicator?) make a very poor case for ARSA.

Tom Ha NAR #76754 rocketha at netscape dot net