ATFE to produce anti-rocketry video

November 4, 2003 - The ATFE and its contractor, Applied Research Associates, have been purchasing high power rocket motors, rocket
kits, launch rails, electrical launchers and other items to conduct tests at Hill Air Force Base in Utah. The purpose of the tests is to provide proof that high power rockets can be used to shoot down commercial aircraft during landings and takeoffs. The tests will be documented by videotape. It is expected that the video tape will be released during a press conference for maximum media exposure.
The ATFE plans were first discovered by a high power rocket vendor who recognized the name of ATFE agent, David Shatzer, as he purchased launch rail equipment. Mr. Shatzer has been traveling across the country purchasing other high power rocket supplies using the cover story that he is a high power rocket hobbyist. He changes the story with respect to who he will be flying with depending on his geographical location. Applied Research Associates has purchased at least 40 J350 rocket motors and large numbers of rocket kits from different suppliers.
It was reported to ARSA that Applied Research Associates employees along with ATFE agents were to conduct tests yesterday at Hill Air Force Base using a target drone to simulate a commercial aircraft. The high power rockets were to be launched out of a parked van. The rockets were going to be launched one at a time at the drone as well as several at a time. The rockets did not contain explosive warheads. It is not known whether the drone was rigged to simulate an explosion as a high power rocket passed by.
The information in this story was made available to Senator Mike Enzi's staff. It is not know at this time, what action, if any, Senator Enzi plans to take. Watch for further updates on this story as it develops.
[ from http://www.space-rockets.com/arsanews#atfe ]
- iz
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As bad as this sounds, it could be a good thing properly done. As long as there is some oversight to prevent falsifying the tests, we could prove once and for all what we've been saying. And while we're at it, let's try to get some of those J350 to explode (hope they're not the spongey ones!).
And if done improperly, it could be used to expose the ATFE for heavy handed techniques.
Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed wrote:

--
Alex Mericas


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On 4 Nov 2003 12:41:47 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@acceptable-gains.net (Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed) wrote:

And when they fail to shoot down anything, will they still release the tape to the press...? Or maybe they have a totally fabricated one ready, and the purchases are just a smokescreen...
Things to make you go "Hmmm..." :-)
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Purcahses are NOT a smokescreen.
--
Stephen Corban
"If you build it they will come" - May 2003
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I'd like them to test what the DOJ claimed could be done with HPR...
"These large rocket motors could potentially be adapted by terrorists for use in surface-to-air missiles capable of intercepting commercial and military airplanes at cruise altitude and for use in “light anti-tank” weapons capable of hitting targets from a range of nearly five miles."
Then they'd *really* fail!
- Robert Galejs
Len Lekx wrote:

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This post is a keeper.

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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snipped-for-privacy@NOSPAM.rogers.com (Len Lekx) wrote in (Ismaeel

Think of a multiple-rocket launcher like a Soviet BM-21,that fires dozens of rockets,and is portable,trailer-able. That would do it,with unguided rockets.Terrorists already use them on Israel.
--
Jim Yanik,NRA member
jyanik-at-kua.net
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(Ismaeel

Not using off the shelf hobby rocket kits they aren't... you make it sound as if this was so. I suggest you get a look at the details of your story.

~Duane Phillips.
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My initial response is - I hope they use red delay liners and copperheads, but the US Army tested unguided rockets with a lot more horsepower than a J350 against moving aerial targets in the 50's with a ZERO hit rate. The chance of repeatable success in this endeavor is about the same as winning the PowerBall - twice. -- Bruce Kirchner TRA L2 #5888 Michigan Team 1 High Power Rocketry Proud Gun Owner!
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (Bruce Kirchner) wrote:

ROFL
Unless you skew the test.

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Oh sure, when I made that joke I was out of line...
Jerry Irvine wrote:

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On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 22:15:55 -0600, Alex Mericas wrote:

Jerry means well... I think :)
But, like, whatever...
The fact is that later "hittile" systems used the technique very effectively. The French Catulle system, for example.
But such systems require both high-tech ground support AND performance characteristics from the rocket propellant that would be magical for even a high-power model rocket to achieve.
Thus anything resembling resembling even a near miss would require a lot of fixing on the BATF's side.
Unfortunately they have a documented record of fixing such things.
And getting caught.
_After_ the damage is done...
--
Chuck Stewart
"Anime-style catgirls: Threat? Menace? Or just studying algebra?"
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Chuck Stewart wrote:

Yeah, once administrative Fear Reactions have been publicly set going, the facts cease to matter. Look at the Gulf of Tonkin thing: the "we're under attack!" message had taken on a life of its own as it made its way up the channels, even though it turned out to be a false alarm.
Once a congressperson/bureaucrat has made a big deal about putting in a new Anti-Terrorist Measure, he's not likely to go back and insist on repealing it _just_ because of the revelation of an obscure bit of deception by a secretive government agency...
BATF doesn't _care_ if they eventually get caught. It doesn't seem to hurt them. (Imagine the fallout on NASA, for example, if they had an _accident_ that took out as many people as were burned up in the Waco fire... of course, NASA doesn't get to say "they dared to oppose us in the Performance of our Duty, so they were scum by definition anyway, and therefore deserved to die...")
-dave w
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wrote:

But - is that a system used against aircraft, or does it try to saturation-bomb a stationary target?
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On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 10:34:12 +0000, Len Lekx wrote:

As I read about it in Bill Gunston's "Encyclopedia of Rockets and Missiles" it was definitely an antiaircraft weapon. It caught my attention and I looked up some news articles that seemed promising .. and now, decades later, I can't find a hint about it on the web.
Am I spelling it right? It was a box launcher holding a cluster of very high speed unguided rockets to be launched at enemy aircraft. circa 70's.
And needless to say the ground support, radar tracking, computer-aimed launcher, and above all else propellant specification demands render such a system utterly unattainable by even the most ingenius of terrorist-wannabes if they tried to implement it with model rocket engines.
--
Chuck Stewart
"Anime-style catgirls: Threat? Menace? Or just studying algebra?"
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That still begs the question of why they would want to, even if they could. It would be much easier to just my military weapons on the black market, with all the engineering already complete.
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On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 07:58:13 -0600, David W. wrote:

... the above has nothing to do with what the BATF says the terrorists will want to do, you terrorist-supporting scum... so put your D12-0's down and come out with your paws up...
--
Chuck Stewart
"Anime-style catgirls: Threat? Menace? Or just studying algebra?"
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Whan did D12's become HIGH POWER motors?
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Jim Yanik,NRA member
jyanik-at-kua.net
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wrote:

That's in next weeks memo from the BATFE...Chuck was just a little early. We are going to announce this next week when we announce our plans to make model airplanes terrorist weapons. So just forget you saw this.
BATFU...I mean E
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wrote:

From page 148:
Javelot
Tough not guided, this system has extremely advanced prelaunch guidance and deserves inclusion. Prime contractor Thomson-CSF designed Javelot as an integrated SAM system with an acquisition radar, fire control radar and digital fire control computer, with options of optical fire-control and laser ranging. The missile is a spin stabilized rocket carried in preloaded magazines which can be replaced within 30 Sec. Each fresh magazine is positioned with its 64 missiles aligned with 64 launch tubes which diverge slightly to give dispersion patterns which depend on the tubes selected by the computer. Groups of 8, 16, or 32 can be fired at once, the total being and 8x8 matrix. Minimum delay between missile groups is 0.1 Sec. Kill probability against any aircraft or missile target at 4,920 Ft. (1500 m) is put at 70%. THe US Army is interested in this system, which in mid 1978 was at contract feasibility stage. Catulle is the ship-based version.
Dissensions: Length 14.6 in. (370 mm). diameter 1.57 in (40 mm) Launch weight: 2.27 Lb (1.03 Kg.) Range: Effective to about 5,000 Ft, (over 1524 m)
I suspect that this never passed the feasibility stage. I think the 70% kill probability is pure fantasy, but to have any significant kill probability, it would at least have to have a high yield warhead with proximity fuse. My guess is that Javelot would not be cost effective with comparable anti-aircraft gunfire systems, or guided missiles.
Alan
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