ATFE to produce anti-rocketry video

From page 148:

Javelot

Tough not guided, this system has extremely advanced prelaunch guidance and deserves inclusion. Prime contractor Thomson-CSF designed Javelot as an integrated SAM system with an acquisition radar, fire control radar and digital fire control computer, with options of optical fire-control and laser ranging. The missile is a spin stabilized rocket carried in preloaded magazines which can be replaced within 30 Sec. Each fresh magazine is positioned with its 64 missiles aligned with 64 launch tubes which diverge slightly to give dispersion patterns which depend on the tubes selected by the computer. Groups of 8, 16, or 32 can be fired at once, the total being and 8x8 matrix. Minimum delay between missile groups is 0.1 Sec. Kill probability against any aircraft or missile target at 4,920 Ft. (1500 m) is put at 70%. THe US Army is interested in this system, which in mid 1978 was at contract feasibility stage. Catulle is the ship-based version.

Dissensions: Length 14.6 in. (370 mm). diameter 1.57 in (40 mm) Launch weight: 2.27 Lb (1.03 Kg.) Range: Effective to about 5,000 Ft, (over 1524 m)

I suspect that this never passed the feasibility stage. I think the

70% kill probability is pure fantasy, but to have any significant kill probability, it would at least have to have a high yield warhead with proximity fuse. My guess is that Javelot would not be cost effective with comparable anti-aircraft gunfire systems, or guided missiles.

Alan

Jerry already stated, in this public forum, that is going to sue them. But I don't belive everything Jerry says.

Alan

NAR/TRA needs to institute a FOIA immediately to get all the results as soon as possible for rebutal analysis purposes....

shockie B)

They are wasting their time and our tax money. The military already did tests like this, except they used Mach 5 Loki Dart sounding rockets (N class motor, higher ISP than our rockets, can reach 200K'). They used radar slaved launchers to send a battery of rockets at a target drone. They expected a LOT more hits than they got. They ended up revising their numbers and stated the chances of an intentional hit were less than one in a million.

This report was one of the references in Trip Barber's reports that led to HPR and NFPA 1127.

Of course I expect that any report produced by the BATFE will have all the intregrity and drama of the infamous Estes APCP burn tape :-(

It's a lot easier to do research when you know the results before you design the experiment.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Until and unless the recent NPRM becomes law, you don't need no permit to buy a J350. I've recently bought 38mm HPR reloads with no ID beyong the credit card used for payment.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Point!

Based on previous DOD tests, I'm not sure AT could produce enough J350s to get a single hit before the end of the new century. It would take an SRB worth of J350s to have a chance at one hit!

Sorry. The JBGTs and their masters are too clueless to ever understand this.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

I'd go for a spray can of insect repellent in the cargo bay, stuffed in a strategic position...

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Because it will take the former NBC staff working for the contractor 39 tries to figure out how to rig some stupid contraption to work so they can film the one failure.

They would do better to use an old lawn mower gas can. Or a spray paint can from Wallymart. Or the gas produced by the idiots that thought this scheme up.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

NFPA 1127 has been adopted in at least 32 states via the IFC, International Fire Code... shockie B)

this folks is a great idea..... shockie B)

perhaps he is either a NAR or TRA member and has an L2? Is that remotely possible? I mean, if I was an ATF agent(and I'm not!) and I wanted to know my"enemy", I would join up, get the certs, and be able to "talk the talk" and "walk the walk"..with my fellow rocketeers....agent provacetuer? How would the NAR/TRA even know who you really were? Its not like they perform a background check on you to see if your an undercover ATF agent......maybe my paranoia is just geting the best of me huh?

I sure hope we don't have a bunch of HPR motor dealers going around selling J450's to people without proper certification's id......

shockie B)

ATF claims you do and he is an ATF employee.

Have you READ the ATF points and authorities in the NAR lawsuit?

He therefore violated an order of his employer, a ruling by his employer, and you can be sure whatever they are doing with them does NOT constitute a "civil" use of the product or "intended use".

It is illegal 7 ways from sunday.

I do believe that is a felony.

1. Intended use.
2. Not subject to ATF whim
3. The LAW states EXEMPT when intended use is complied with.

Jerry

And 10 dollars says the first time they try to prosecute under 1127 it gets tossed out (given at least a public defender for an attorney).

Absolutely horizontal? Not much.

Let's see. Shoulder launched is 5' (1.5m) above the ground.

D=1/2AT^2

Solve for T: T=Sqrt(2*d/A)

Sqrt(2*1.5/10)=.5

So ANY rocket shoulder launched absolutely horizontally will be on the ground in half a second. Doesn't matter if it's a Mosquito, a Magnum, a shot put, or a high velocity rifle bullet. pRASP says that I'll get 80' in the first .5 seconds from a J350 in a typical 4" rocket.

[OK, RMR, what's wrong with my math?]

Now, if you launch with any angle above horizontal, all bets are off. Maximum range is at 45 degrees, and is twice the vertical altitude. But try to hit a fixed target the size of an aircraft or semi-trailer with this is virtually impossible. And you don't need HPR to test this out. Launch an Alpha on a ballistic flight. Try to score a soccer goal from the opposite end of the field. You only get one shot.

OK, with several dozen attempts, you may finally get lucky. Carefully record each flight, and the azimuth and elevation angles. Now go home and come back next week. This time to a different field in a different place with different winds. And go for a corner shot this time instead of a goal to goal shot. See if your data helps at all.

Or just watch folks fly Spot landing at NARAM...

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

If this were even close to true, regardless of the type of rockets used, every airline flying through the Israeli skys would be shot down today.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

I read an article somewhere (I think it was CNN) indicating that the terrorists attacking Israeli settlements are creating el-cheapo home-made rockets and lauching them. The damage inflicted is very minimal and the accuracy is horrible. But the psychological effect is what they're after.

-Kevin

Ignition delays???

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

You can be 1000% certain that the test WILL be skewed. With 40 motors, they've got 39 chances to figure out how to do it. Put the plane on a pedistal, and have the rocket giuded by a hidden wire. Put explosives on the plane and have them detonate when the rocket misses the target. Or just video edit the rocket into the plane or vice versa, using ILM to do the special effects. There's as many other ways to do it as there are faked UFO pictures.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!