Estes Snapshot Flight Report

And a moron.

Preferably the latter.

Dave W. replied:

The data could be destroyed, damaged or lost at any time _after_ the test.

Because it's the truth. Conjecture is not proof. Speculation is not proof. Just because one explanation seems to be the "obvious" explanation does not make it so.

Furthermore, this accusation of testing irregularities which allegedly took place over a decade ago is utterly irrelevant to the present.

So why does it mean so much to you?

Bob, I'm sorry you're unable or unwilling to get out of that circular logic rut. Until you do, you can simply not purchase any motors you think weren't tested. Problem solved.

Dave W. wrote:

I've seen that but, did anyone bother to check further than just listing some numbers & accusing? Those certifications would be expired a long time ago. Why not move on?

I'd like to thank Daniel for his excellent report on his experiences with the Estes Snapshot kit. As a matter of fact, it inspired me to go to the East Palmdale WalMart to get one of the HUUUUGE pile of Snapshots that they stocked up for the big 4th of July sales season (THAT obviously work for them) and will probably take it out for a few flights this weekend at the MDARS launch. Nothing like a few shots of a dry lakebed from a couple hundred feet up, eh?

But I just don't get why it has to degenerate into 70 plus posts of name calling and "prove this" and "nyah- nyah" and explanations of why circular logic don't work. I believe that you may want to consider creating a new newsgroup called "rec.models.rockets.bitch.about.it" or "rec.models.rockets.please.whine.here" or something to that effect. Honestly, I find it annoying to come here to try to learn something new, and have to wade through a mountain of crap to find a single nugget that isn't bitching about something. It's a hobby, people. It should be fun. Nobody is forcing you join an association that you don't like. Nobody is forcing you to vote for a board you don't trust. If you don't like the board of this organization or that one, start a grassroots group contacting individual members, run for office, and get on the board. Whatever. But remember, it is a hobby!! The only thing I've ever seen that is more pathetic than the politics here in this newsgroup is the political bickering between different Klingon fan groups deciding which is the "official" Klingon fan group. You cannot take an overweight, homemade costume wearing, bad makeup adorned Klingon warrior in eyeglasses seriously. It's quite comical, and in the whole scheme of things, very trivial.

Enough of my rant. Please quit arguing, kids.

Alan Tuskes

Nope, wrong conclusion, Dave. If you show up at school without your homework, the teacher can't accuse you of not doing it at all. The only fact that can be proven is you don't have it with you. It cannot be proven if you completed it or not.

steve

No need to prove you wrong, Bob. You're in a very small minority of people who still care about the subject. Most everyone else has moved on. All of us have an opinion about whether or not the motors were tested, we simply accept it as our opinion and have moved on.

Maybe you could too?

steve

I've made no accusation, so I have nothing to prove. You've made an accusation against TRA and are unable to provide undeniable, verifiable proof. All you have to back it up is the lack of some data, which in itself only proves a lack of data.

I'm not saying you're wrong. You may be 100% right, but you have no solid proof.

You're jumping to conclusions.

Your denial of the solid proof is in no way a lack of it.

You are breathing therefore you are alive.

I am jumping to conclusions.

the teacher

Right, but either way you can't get credit for it. Are we supposed to let TRA convince us that their dog ate the data, but the tests happened anyway?

Why? Because Chuck SAID "they were tested"? And we wouldn't want to contradict him without absolute proof? (This seems to be what Ray's position comes down to, as near as I can parse it.)

-dave w

How about you get Jerry, Phil, Bob and Ray (since, in this thread at least, they are the main protagonists) together in a room, and see who survives. From what I've seen on RMR, the results wouldn't be pretty!

How about maybe launching some rockets :-)

-- Niall Oswald ========= UKRA 1345 L0 EARS 1151 MARS

"Gravity assisted pieces of the rocket raining from the sky should be avoided. It is also financially undesirable."

-Portland State Aerospace Society

We might disagree about some things but that doesn't mean I'm going to kick their asses.

Come back with a new idea when you learn to speak english.

Although things get pretty heated online at times, I try not to take any of it personally and hope the others don't take it that way either. I've met Bob and get along fine with him in person. Although I haven't seen Jerry since a few years before I came to the online rocketry forums, I think that if we met again at a launch it would be nothing less than civil -- and I'd love to stick some of his Firestarters in my camera rockets again someday.

Currently I'm working on getting ready for my big desert rocketry trip in August. Takes a lot of planning to make a trip like that, and I have some cool stuff in the works.

BTW, you and Joel will be happy to know that I have put Jerry back in the killfile for a while. :)

We know.

We know.

It started in 86, was going fine by 90 and the irregularities at issue are 1995-2002.

Very recent.

We know.

Jerry

How come none of those shortcuts allow Jerry to sell ATF exempt, shipping approved motors?

Where are you going?