O.T. - On Target...

The reason for this is a direct reaction to the abuses of nepotism, cronism, and other assorted officeplace "isms" that dominated government offices in the

18th, 19th, early 20th centuries.

The sheer corruption in many govt. jobs in the past finally upset people enough that a system was devised to try to insulate govt. jobs from many of the problems found in any human organization.

This is not dissimilar to military life/rules if you think about it. Naturally the military the rules are more stringent (i.e. military rules are designed for order in the rnaks, obedience, etc.), but one side effect is to reduce many of the negative "isms" of day-to-day work (although there is still room for them if someone if determined).

Firing the useless is perfectly doable in civil service. However, it requires management to actually do their jobs, including that annoying documentation aspect.

This is the biggest reason they claim it is so hard. I think it is reasonable to give someone extra training and/or direction if they simply need help before just firing them (assuming typical job). But, if they really are incompetent (other), I think it is only right to force management to document everything (if nothing else, to defend agianst the inevitable lawsuit). If they aren't willing to do the documentation, obviously management has decided the worker is not a problem after all.

Reply to
SamVanga
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Masterfully said!

This is exactly the effort for which I was striving, and not really hitting.

Reply to
SamVanga

Actually, having working in the system for 32 years, I must say that although it is hard to fire an incompetant worker (for whatever reason he is incompetant), there are other ways of getting rid of him. Usually, denying him promotions, making sure he gets the crap jobs, no overtime; these are things that usually work. The local big-shot of Erie County (my former alma mater) just found a new way as well that seems to be working for him. He promotes whatever cromies and loyalists he has to a brand-new title with a nice pay raise. Then he promotes the rest to another title, with a pay raise (maybe the same amount). This is following by red-lining the old position. The following budget, the group that is leaving is red-lined. Because their former positions have also been red-lined, they're out the door. And his cronies are all still there. Add insult to injury when he gives them the paychecks of the folks that left. So far, a couple of his pals have caused him some grief, with one (so far) actually going to jail. And they wonder why Western New York is going down the toilet! 8-P

-- John The history of things that didn't happen has never been written. . - - - Henry Kissinger

Reply to
The Old Timer

Given that, on the basis of education and experience, I'm actually entitled to write the reference works others would rely on, I suppose you ought to just take my word for it ;-) If you do a search on 'fascism' on that site, you will see at least one definition substanitally in line with what I wrote. I am also relying on memory, though I suspect a little research in the library (far more reliable than the Net, AFAIC) would bear out my take. Maybe I'll do that next week.

Mark Schynert

Reply to
Mark Schynert

I'll have to work harder on my sarcasm.....

Could be. Why not just have the federal government dictate the pay scales for private screeners in that case?

Police and fire departments are municipal, not federal, entities. You're talking apples and oranges.

Reply to
Al Superczynski

Not really.

Police and fire depts. are related to societal security. So, as government entities tied to security functions, the link to security functions covered by the feds is that they are all public/govt. entities, not private.

Reply to
SamVanga

I can't say the present system is perfect. But, when you look at the historical record, we are better off than the systems in place in the

1800s-early 1900s.
Reply to
SamVanga

Oh it was, and still is, for the most part. All I'm saying is that there is a strong trend in this country to do away with Civil Service and go back to the Spoils System. And our own beloved County Executive, doing his best impersonation of Boss Hogg, is one of the ones leading the way.

-- John The history of things that didn't happen has never been written. . - - - Henry Kissinger

Reply to
The Old Timer

So why aren't police and fire departments all federalized?

Reply to
Al Superczynski

With police, there are some Federal level. U.S. Marshalls and FBI come to mind. In addition, every state has some form of State Police, or State Troopers.

On the other hand (besides the five fingers), in the non-urban areas, all (almost all) fire companies are volunteer...

-- John The history of things that didn't happen has never been written. . - - - Henry Kissinger

Reply to
The Old Timer

Well, since they all get Federal money by now, you could make the argument that they are.

Regardless, this leads to a bigger question of govt., why bother with 3 levels (Fed, State, Local)? I'm a big believer in cutting out the middle man and saving money.

Reply to
SamVanga

But even the volunteer companies are under some form of govt. direction, not private side.

Reply to
SamVanga

Three levels because in some matters, more or less local control is desirable. Commerical efficiency justifies the federal Commerce Clause, but State funding needs justify sales tax, and local livability conditions justify local zoning rules. In public safety, some matters belong in the federal purview (like keeping track of aliens), some at the state level (like state or regional forestry departments) and some at the local level. It's always debatable whether any given function ought to be controlled from the top or from the bottom, and it's complicated by Congress constantly sending money to the states and communities with all sorts of strings attached (as in, we won't tell you what to do, but you can't have the money unless you do it the way we're telling you to do it.) These trifurcations exist because the voters won't agree to anything else. If you really like it all coming from the top, you might consider moving to France, where Paris dictates virtually everything, from school policy to what qualifies as French bread to how many hours you may work per week.

Mark Schynert

Reply to
Mark Schynert

I think the title was "Very Proper Charlies" or something like that... the book title was "TV Tomorrow" or something similar. Front cover a pic of a pinkish robot sitting down facing away as if watching TV. Best story in the book is about the first starship, but I won't tell you what TV related activity they were up to...

WinBear

Reply to
WinBear (Bob Horton)

For internal administrative matters (ex. pay, retirement, workplace regs.), what value is added by three different sets of directions?

Reply to
SamVanga

None. It's not value--it's the cost of doing business. It doesn't always make sense, but rationality in government (or in private industry, for that matter) is often trumped by turf protection or philosophical prejudices.

Mark Schynert

Reply to
Mark Schynert

I don't know about you but I hardly want the Feds to control

*everything*.
Reply to
Al Superczynski

Or to any EU country.....

Reply to
Al Superczynski

"Al Superczynski" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

While in the USA the government decides who you can have sex with.

Reply to
Bassie Adriaensen

If you seriously believe that you're more clueless about the USA than advertised.

WmB

To reply, get the HECK out of there snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.net

Reply to
WmB

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