Merry Christmas,

Jerry posted:


Hello Jerry and thank you for a well written response. I accept the challenge. Curt may have tossed a grain of sand into the wormgear but we should remember it takes at least 2 to stretch a thread. :)

I don't know if the other religions you mentioned would enjoy it or not, but what I would term liberal activists use those groups as a tool to push and enforce into our society their own anti-Christian agendas. I will defend this statement for now by simply asking you to consider the changes that have occurred in our culture over, say the last 3 decades, and who exactly were the instigators of those changes.
Yes, there are differences within Christian sects but aside from those between Protestant and Catholic and certain cult offshoots, they not to the degree or importance you suggest. It's the other religions where the conflict lies, religions which except for Native American beliefs had no part in the foundations of this country, and even these religions have only become an issue in the last couple decades. Our "history" made us strong by taking diversity and combining it into one nation and roughly one similar moral faith-based belief system. It is the acts of modern liberalism which has done the opposite and divided our nation, using "diversity" in an attempt to alter it's entire culture to conform to a more global, one world order mentality in which America's heritage and traditions, steeped in Christianity, are slowly eliminated and replaced with foreign cultures, religions, practices, and ideology. If it continues, America will no longer have an identity at all.
Surely the Founders made allowances for other beliefs to exist within America, but there is no evidence to suggest they intended these to ever be allowed to replace the Biblical beliefs we were structured on.

I disagree; your definition of the greeting as merely one of "hope for joy" is only such if you redefine the greeting from it's original and traditional meaning. When I give that greeting, a testimony is exactly what the intent is. If someone is offended because of what I believe, that is their problem. Do other faiths have consideration for the feelings of a Christian? Not much I'd say. Not only do they want us to be "aware" of them, but they would prefer we set our beliefs aside to make room for theirs. The liberal creation of political correctness has set this up so that it is always Christianity which must back down and conform to other religions, and I don't understand why this double standard is accepted by so many people, even within Christianity itself.

On the subject of Curt I will give you the benefit of the doubt in your assessment. I haven't studied all his posts but only judged by the few I read in this thread. Harm can be done deliberately or through ignorance and I'm not sure from which Curt originates.
There was one last subject in this thread; that of effectiveness of prayer which I assume was being used as an example of evidence of there being a God. I don't know which studies were bogus and which were not. I do know that there are documented cases of miraculous unexplained (medically) healings nearly every year that most often involve prayer. For what that is worth.
If anyone here would be sincerely interested in seeing Divine intervention through historical examples concerning America's formation, I would highly recommend reading a 2006 book entitled "Mayflower" by Nathaniel Philbrick. Let me say upfront that this is not a "religious" book or one designed to put a spin on history one way or the other but a fair, truthful account of the Pilgrims arrival and the 2nd generation war that followed in the New England area based on recorded accounts from numerous historical sources (Christian and not) as well as accounts by Native Americans of the time. Although it is not the intent, Philbrick does not censor out events that can only be described as the hand of Providence at work time after time in this period of history. I have read similar accounts from other sources during the Revolutionary War and it becomes difficult to argue when all are taken into account that something greater than chance and coincidence played a part in so many events.
I was hesitant at first to read this, fearing it would tear down all the stories we have been traditionally taught on the subject. Indeed not a few myths are put to rest and Philbrick does not refrain from detailing mistakes and misdeeds made by the colonists (as well as the Indians), but the full story is so much better and beyond what is commonly taught (parts of it are actually on the level of an action/adventure story if you can believe that). If all the current information was removed from school textbooks about the Pilgrims and replaced with a reading of Mayflower, I would have no problem with it.
Sorry for the length of this post. I was in the mood.:) ~Brad
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snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net wrote:

You make it their problem by prosletyzing.
> Do other faiths have consideration for the feelings of a Christian? > Not much I'd say.
About as much as you do for theirs.

Maybe they're just sick of your special pleading.
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snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net wrote:

Brad
I will decline your offer of future discussion of this issue. I was quite serious in my original apology about furthering the discussion of non-model railroading topics. No human can can make definative promises about future behavior, but, I shall try to refrain from re-entering this fray.
Thank you for pointing out where I may have been unclear in stating that Merry Christmas was *a greeting showing a hope for (seasonal) joy*. I should have added TO ME someplace in the sentence. I would guess that between my innocuous usage of the term and your testimony there also exists a myriad of other meanings. I really don't know what the *original and traditional* one was, or even if they are one in the same.
I still beleve it unfortunate that curt has taken what (mostly) was a simple benign thread and turned it into what has become a theological-cosmological debate. Admittedly, however, we've given him lots of help. Thank you.
Jerry
Jerry
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I'm pretty much the same. I'm a colloquial agnostic, yet I do have a fondness for Christmas just as a part of American cultural heritage.
I'm 42 years old, and my earliest memories of Christmas have nothing to with religion. It was just a time when people were nicer to each other (well, back then at least... adults didn't beat pregnant women to the ground in a stampede to get the must have toy of the year), we watched shows such as Frosty the Snowman, Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reindeer, Santa Clause is Coming to Town, The Grinch Who Stole Christmas, etc.
It also meant that stainless aluminum Christmas tree - the envy of the neighborhood. That left behind during a move, and Christmas was never the same. So this year I dropped $995 to buy the very same tree 1965 vintage tree. (I did the math. In 1965 dollars, I spent less than my father did...)
It's been a secular holiday (albeit with both Christian and Pagan origins) for ages.
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snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net wrote:

Which it is, no?

Forgive my skepticism - care to cite a news report or other confirmation of this claim?

Chalk it up to "curt" being deranged...
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wrote:

No, I don't see it as pushing Christianity into the schools. They are simply naming traditional national holidays as they should be and referring to the breaks given around them in that light.
Next people will complain that recognizing Martlin Luther King with a national holiday amounts to pushing Christianity into the schools.

An atheist setting himself on fire to protest Christmas? Yes, something does seem bass-ackwards about that scenario.
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"Mark" (fake name of Steve)
First off, you and Steve your other name always post at the same time. If you are trying to fool anyone it is not working.
And you always insult people. That is all you do. You have nothing to add to anything other than an insult or some nonsensical rant which is either acid driven, or worse, something you think makes you seem intelligent.
I am still praying for you though. Hate the sin, love the sinner. You make it hard but that is the trial God puts us through. Someday you will see the light .
Mark Newton wrote:

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On 15 Jan 2007 07:14:32 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@aim.com wrote:

Yeah, you and Ted Haggard, eh? Or did you go to Rev. Billy Sol Hargis' Bisexual Bible Institute?
--
Steve

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"Steve" or whatever name you are using this hour Please make some sense. You need to lay off of the drugs we cannot understand you.
Still praying for you "Steve"
Steve Caple wrote:

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On 15 Jan 2007 11:51:29 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@aim.com wrote:

Oh, I doubt that. I'm sure you remember when two alumni of Rev. Hargis' Bible College declared their past sexual histories on their wedding night and discovered the "Reverend" had boffed both of them. At least it was at separate times.
The reason I'm so sure you remember is that's why you enrolled there.
--
Steve

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"Steve" you are wrong about something you are sure about? Never heard of him. Funny you focus on weakness and sin and not the good things churchs and god do.
I will withstand you childish behavior and keep hoping for the best for you and your other personalities. When does your school start up again tommorrow?
Steve Caple wrote:

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On 15 Jan 2007 16:43:15 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@aim.com wrote:

... evidently don't include helping your spelling, let alone logic.
--
Steve

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Steve you are going to hell for sure unless you change. What exactly is your contribution to the world other than hate?
Steve Caple wrote:

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2 apologies: One for being so late in responding and Two for digging up an old thread. Had a response composed last week but never got in here. Anyway here goes. This one was a discussion with Mark Newman.

No, it's acknowledging that the 2 weeks off for schools in December is actually due to the Christmas holiday. As I see it the conundrum the more radical liberal atheists have with this and other government observed religious holidays is that they have to figure out a way to remove all traces of God's existence out of schools without losing those days off. The current tactic is to rewrite history and redefine what the holiday means. They've also used this redefine tactic with the theory of evolution by redefining what a "fact" is and more recently in attempting to confuse the definition of marriage.

Not a problem. Here are two sources. I haven't tried the video link on the second. Somebody apparently got it on their camera phone so maybe you can even see it as it happened.
http://www.bakersfield.com/619/story/90830.html
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_IDS493
Update from a radio report a few days ago: He has undergone 3 surgeries at a burn center and is in much pain. It's still unknown if he even remembers what happened.

As I've said, I don't know enough about the fellow or his history on the boards to really no for sure why he comes across as antagonistic. I see he has his own OT thread now.

No, not really. If saying "Merry Christmas" was prosletyzing then there would be little reason for Christians to exchange the phrase amongst each other, which they do. As Jerry mentioned, today it has acquired additional meanings, but in it's purest form it is still a personal testimony of a belief about the occasion and a hope the recipient may enjoy it as well.

I'd say the Christian faith compared to most is one of the most tolerant in the world of other beliefs.

I don't think it's that. It seems that they simply have little respect for our culture when they enter in to it (most of the complainers from these other faiths are newer immigrants) and for some odd reason want to turn our culture into the type they ran away from. We have enough problems without adding in problems from other countries. Wouldn't you agree?
~Brad
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snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net wrote:
> 2 apologies: One for being so late in responding and Two for digging > up an old thread. Had a response composed last week but never got in > here. Anyway here goes. This one was a discussion with Mark Newman.
Mark Newton, actually.
>>> Here where I live, the city school board recently voted to >>> restore the names "Christmas Vacation" and "Easter Vacation" to >>> the appropriate school breaks. Needless to say this caused a lot >>> of controversy. Many atheists claimed in the local paper and talk >>> radio shows that it was a move by the school board (especially >>> one who is a well known Christian and brought up the issue) to >>> push Christianity into the schools. >> >> Which it is, no? > > No, it's acknowledging that the 2 weeks off for schools in December > is actually due to the Christmas holiday.
Which is a Christian celebration.
> As I see it the conundrum the more radical liberal atheists have with > this and other government observed religious holiday is that they > have to figure out a way to remove all traces of God's existence out > of schools.
Which confirms my previous point about pushing Christianity into schools.
> The current tactic is to rewrite history and redefine what the > holiday means. They've also used this redefine tactic with the theory > of evolution by redefining what a "fact" is and more recently in > attempting to confuse the definition of marriage.
Relevance? Apart from attempting to conflate creationism or "intelligent design" as fact?
>>> One in fact a few days later one went down to the Court House in >>> the middle of a weekday where a Christmas tree had been set up >>> outside, and began yelling out obscenities about Christians and >>> the School Board. He then proceeded to throw gasoline on the >>> tree, and himself, and lit himself and said tree on fire. He's >>> still in the hospital last I heard. >> >> Forgive my skepticism - care to cite a news report or other >> confirmation of this claim? > > Not a problem. Here are two sources. I haven't tried the video link > on the second. Somebody apparently got it on their camera phone so > maybe you can even see it as it happened. > > http://www.bakersfield.com/619/story/90830.html > > http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_IDS493
Hmm. One heavily qualified and subjective account quoting everybody but the bloke involved. The other, a rehash of the first, from a highly subjective, pro-Christian site. I'm not convinced.
>>> As for Curt's enthusiasm, I will chalk that up to being young in >>> the spirit, >> >> Chalk it up to "curt" being deranged... > > As I've said, I don't know enough about the fellow or his history on > the boards to really no for sure why he comes across as antagonistic.
He comes across that way because he is a troll. That is his sole purpose. That, and the fact that he's off the planet...
>>> When I give that greeting, a testimony is exactly what the intent >>> is. If someone is offended because of what I believe, that is >>> their problem.
>> You make it their problem by prosletyzing. > > No, not really. If saying "Merry Christmas" was prosletyzing then > there would be little reason for Christians to exchange the phrase > amongst each other, which they do. As Jerry mentioned, today it has > acquired additional meanings, but in it's purest form it is still a > personal *testimony of a belief* about the occasion...
As I said, prosletyzing.
>>> Do other faiths have consideration for the feelings of a >>> Christian? Not much I'd say. >> >> About as much as you do for theirs. > > I'd say the Christian faith compared to most is one of the most > tolerant in the world of other beliefs.
Yes, you would. You'd choose to ignore any evidence to the contrary.
>>> Not only do they want us to be "aware" of them, but they would >>> prefer we set our beliefs aside to make room for theirs. >> >> Maybe they're just sick of your special pleading. > > I don't think it's that. It seems that they simply have little > respect for our culture when they enter in to it (most of the > complainers from these other faiths are newer immigrants) and for > some odd reason want to turn our culture into the type they ran away > from. We have enough problems without adding in problems from other > countries. Wouldn't you agree?
No, I wouldn't. You say "we" as if I was an American. I'm not.
If you want to live in a monoculture where there is only one, state-sanctioned religion, I reckon Iran would be a good bet.
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snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net wrote:
> 2 apologies: One for being so late in responding and Two for digging > up an old thread. Had a response composed last week but never got in > here. Anyway here goes. This one was a discussion with Mark Newman.
Mark Newton, actually.
>>> Here where I live, the city school board recently voted to >>> restore the names "Christmas Vacation" and "Easter Vacation" to >>> the appropriate school breaks. Needless to say this caused a lot >>> of controversy. Many atheists claimed in the local paper and talk >>> radio shows that it was a move by the school board (especially >>> one who is a well known Christian and brought up the issue) to >>> push Christianity into the schools. >> >> Which it is, no? > > No, it's acknowledging that the 2 weeks off for schools in December > is actually due to the Christmas holiday.
Which is a Christian celebration.
> As I see it the conundrum the more radical liberal atheists have with > this and other government observed religious holiday is that they > have to figure out a way to remove all traces of God's existence out > of schools.
Which confirms my previous point about pushing Christianity into schools.
> The current tactic is to rewrite history and redefine what the > holiday means. They've also used this redefine tactic with the theory > of evolution by redefining what a "fact" is and more recently in > attempting to confuse the definition of marriage.
Relevance? Apart from attempting to conflate creationism or "intelligent design" as fact?
>>> One in fact a few days later one went down to the Court House in >>> the middle of a weekday where a Christmas tree had been set up >>> outside, and began yelling out obscenities about Christians and >>> the School Board. He then proceeded to throw gasoline on the >>> tree, and himself, and lit himself and said tree on fire. He's >>> still in the hospital last I heard. >> >> Forgive my skepticism - care to cite a news report or other >> confirmation of this claim? > > Not a problem. Here are two sources. I haven't tried the video link > on the second. Somebody apparently got it on their camera phone so > maybe you can even see it as it happened. > > http://www.bakersfield.com/619/story/90830.html > > http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_IDS493
Hmm. One heavily qualified and subjective account quoting everybody but the bloke involved. The other, a rehash of the first, from a highly subjective, pro-Christian site. I'm not convinced.
>>> As for Curt's enthusiasm, I will chalk that up to being young in >>> the spirit, >> >> Chalk it up to "curt" being deranged... > > As I've said, I don't know enough about the fellow or his history on > the boards to really no for sure why he comes across as antagonistic.
He comes across that way because he is a troll. That is his sole purpose. That, and the fact that he's off the planet...
>>> When I give that greeting, a testimony is exactly what the intent >>> is. If someone is offended because of what I believe, that is >>> their problem.
>> You make it their problem by prosletyzing. > > No, not really. If saying "Merry Christmas" was prosletyzing then > there would be little reason for Christians to exchange the phrase > amongst each other, which they do. As Jerry mentioned, today it has > acquired additional meanings, but in it's purest form it is still a > personal *testimony of a belief* about the occasion...
As I said, prosletyzing.
>>> Do other faiths have consideration for the feelings of a >>> Christian? Not much I'd say. >> >> About as much as you do for theirs. > > I'd say the Christian faith compared to most is one of the most > tolerant in the world of other beliefs.
Yes, you would. You'd choose to ignore any evidence to the contrary.
>>> Not only do they want us to be "aware" of them, but they would >>> prefer we set our beliefs aside to make room for theirs. >> >> Maybe they're just sick of your special pleading. > > I don't think it's that. It seems that they simply have little > respect for our culture when they enter in to it (most of the > complainers from these other faiths are newer immigrants) and for > some odd reason want to turn our culture into the type they ran away > from. We have enough problems without adding in problems from other > countries. Wouldn't you agree?
No, I wouldn't. You say "we" as if I was an American. I'm not.
If you want to live in a monoculture where there is only one, state-sanctioned religion, I reckon Iran would be a good bet.
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     snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net writes:

The Romans camped on a Paegan holiday. They were celebrating the return of the sun. Eventually, the birthday of Christ was convienently moved to overlap this hijacking.
Paul
--
The lotto must be rigged, I should have won by now.
Modular furniture is cruel and unusual.
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What is the point of this? It is irrelevant to the thread. So you want to call Christmas what now?
On Feb 4, 1:35�pm, snipped-for-privacy@pimin.wan.vpn (Paul Newhouse) wrote:

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     snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com writes:

It follows the thread pretty well, me thinks.
Nevermind the thread doesn't belong in this NG in the first place.

Winter Equinox Holiday Season (the sun really is coming back it just took a few days to be sure and get the party rolling)
OR
Keep the Retailiers in Business Celebration (remember to BUY BUY BUY)
OR
My Name is Better than Your Name Season (and the sun is coming back anyway)
The theologians in the group can address the accuracy of Dec 25th as actually being Christ's birthday.
Paul
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Ok :) the date of the Birth of Jesus is unknown but based on the evidence its anywhere between late September or early April..... and its a pretty pointless debate which has no real relevance in the 21st century except for retailers who want to sell as much of their shoddy toys on children as they can. But if you are going to take over a holiday that has for two millenia been called christmas then you should have a better prepared reason than a bunch of 18th century racists thought it should be that way, the original reason for a holiday was that people worked 7 days a week back then and up to 16/18 hours a day, the using of a well known pagan festival as well as the use of Sunday as the sabbath was in orderr to give ordinairy working chaps a chance to actually have a life as opposed to wholesale drudgery, interestingly I think, the people who are asking for the scrapping of the expresasion CHRIST mas are those who are reasonably wealthy exactly the same type of people who opposed it in the first place, with out a day to call our own which is the end result of such lobbying we who like railway modelling wont have the time to sit down and open a hobby mag let alone construct a railway.
Val Beowulf (Genuine bappy theologian)
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