NAR BoD declines Wickman leadership in legislative action

Please correct yourself. An LEUP is *not* required to *use* any rocket motor, only to purchase, possess independently, and store. If there is a dealer or a friend with a LEUP, you can launch anything you've always done. If you fly easy-access and below, there is no change right now. If the limit goes through, easy access will also require the LEUP helper person.

Igniters and ejection charges that are part of a kit do not and will not require a LEUP. Homemade igniters and BP can be used at a launch if stored and transported by a LEUP holder.

Making it sound worse than it is doesn't help the hobby. Let's focus on keeping things going and getting people involved.

-John DeMar

According to what law? Be specific please.

Are you sure the OPPOSITE is not true.

I would like to see you take your own advise for a change.

Where can I find the term "restricted access motors" in law?

Or any restricted access motors by any other term in law?

So why are your comments well above inconsistent with the statement in this paragraph?

So far this applies to you:

"Life is short and the path is often unclear. It is a great sin to knowingly contribute to someone's confusion."

alex: and don't forget that the BATFE has already taken the position that even IF rocket engines are PADS per Jerry's incessant

55.141-a-8 , they are still regulated to 62.5 grams.....so much for that loophole....

shockie B)

jerry spoke thus:

"The cultural difference is stark"

And therein lies the crux of the problem... The AR/EX folks have never forgiven the model rocketry folks for demonizing and sacrificing them oh so many years ago.....And they may have every right to still be pissed......and want to get a little "payback" .......

And as I have said before, if push comes to shove, the NAR/TRA will sacrifice you again..... And as I have said before, Model Rocketry, Large Model Rocketry, High Power Rocketry is NOT Amateur or Experimental Rocketry......

The major cultural differences of course is regulation: the NAR/TRA believes in it and the ARSA doesn't....The NAR/TRA is willing to submit to some degree of regulation while the ARSA is not....

shockie B)

in it and the ARSA doesn't....The NAR/TRA is willing to

This NAR member says "give me liberty".

Of course. Doesn't make it right though, or even accurate.

Back in the days before ATF illegally decided to regulate APCP motors, there were NO "restricted access" motors, thus no problem.

Depends on what you mean by the "law", and how far back you go. Up until just a few years ago, all rocketry was exempt from ATF regs. Then they illegally changed the rules to exempt only motors with grains less than 62.5g. Now they are trying to make than exemption legally, and limit it further to only 62.5g per motor. That has not yet taken place, but it will eventually unless we get relief from the courts or Congress -- ATF certainly isn't going to change their minds.

Jerry Irvine wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news.verizon.net:

Nobody wants to the first person to make you aware of an arrest. Why is it so hard for you to understand that?

len.

God bless you.

labels on the

to want to

background, right

Steve, I would have left out the D&R words had it not been for A-holes like Schumer and Lautenburg who have made it a political party issue, not a cross-party issue. Democrats attacked Sen Enzi's bill just because he is a Republican and they are the Anti-christ, er, I mean Democrats. ;-)

Mark Simpson NAR 71503 Level II God Bless our peacekeepers

I don't believe that; neither do I believe that we are faced with a binary choice between "the first offered compromise" and "no relief at all".

There are various ways these things happen... look how the SEA got into the HSA in the first place. (Need I say more?)

-dave w

Has BATFE ever been able to make their "beliefs and intentions to act" STICK in a court of law, on this matter? Or has the general government FUD, post-9/11, become so intense that everybody is too afraid that they would be perceived as "Guilty Of Being A Suspected Terrorist" if the issue were even raised?

All of the news reports I've seen (admittedly, not an exhaustive sample... does anyone know of any counterexamples?) making reference to _actual_ criminal accusations of "explosives law violations" involved cases where the perp was evidently preparing some sort of destructive explosion but hadn't discharged it yet, so BATFE made accusations of "obtaining explosives without proper permits" or something.

-dave w

House and Senate staffers have questions generally about the sport rocketry hobby. They're not familiar with what we do for fun. They don't have a clue from squat about dual deployment or M1319's or proper throat diameters or PSAN. There's no inherent reason for them to know about this stuff. We're not America's most popular pastime.

Whether grounded in science or not, those staffers and their bosses have real objections to creating an exempted class for materials that the Administration says are dangerous explosives. The people the staff and members most generally turn to for advice in these matters, ATFE, says it's an explosive, and, like it or not, to Congress, they're the experts in these matters.

There's a need for sport rocketry users and leadership to know what those questions and objections are, both to provide information to our community, and to counter the fears and objections. Unless we know about the issues and objections, we can't successfully counter them.

There are multiple ways to get legislation passed through the Congress. Each one has pluses and minuses. All have been used at various times to successfully pass into law bills which provide relief to widely varying constituencies. What's the optimal path to take?

Given this environment, we have choices to make.

How should the education of members and staff be accomplished?

How can the fear, uncertainty and doubt being sown by ATFE be dispelled?

How can the optimal legislative path be diserned?

How can we engage the members and staff in productive dialog in order to obtain their votes in our favor?

How will the sport rocketry community know what progress is being made or not made towards the passage of legislation, and what, if anything, they should do about it?

Members can certainly argue that we could attempt to do those things on our own.

I submit we should learn from other trade, professional and recreational associations who have problems with the Government.

What do they do to affect legislative change?

They use professional advisors to:

- educate members and staff on their issues;

- provide feedback to association members about progress, concerns and roadblocks;

- assist the leadership in the nature and timing of strategy designed to get legislation passed.

It's John who's provided that staff and member education, that progress reporting to members, and that legislative strategy counsel to NAR and TRA.

If members believe John has not provided value in these three areas, they should tell me either what I should instruct John to do differently going forward, or offer realistic alternatives to his services.

To date, I have received no credible feedback regarding how to get this job done without John Kyte's help.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Mark B. Bundick mbundick - at - earthlink - dot - net NAR President www - dot - nar - dot - org

You don't think my 'hire Jerry' suggestion is credible?

;)

Joel. phx

in it and the ARSA doesn't....The NAR/TRA is willing to

Free? If you want liberty, you have to fight for it.

What create? It is the case NOW. If the President of NAR does not say that in every sentence on the subject, who will, and have anybody listen at all?

Just me?

Just show ATFE's own regs in reply!!!

It's YOUR fault. YOU are the defacto rep for consumer rocketry. Get it up!

The only solution is an emotional and motivating presentation.

Not facts. Besides you have no command of facts.

You are unqualified.

Jerry

Redefine credible?

This should be in the FAQ.

B

Not even an arrest or even a "detention".

Lord knows they have had DOZENS of chances with me. Dozens, with at least 4 actively begged for by hateful rocket folks.

I bet they got their LEUP before making the weak dick accusations.

Jerry