NAR BoD declines Wickman leadership in legislative action

There is an option for those in a metro area (or anywhere else) that can't get storage. They need to make arrangements with someone who has a LEUP/LEDP with storage, and include that on their application form. This could be a dealer at a launch, or a friend from a club. This is the arrangement I have for my LEUP.

I understand that some people choose not to get a LEUP for other reasons, such as not wanting to be subjected to fingerprinting and a background search and not wanting to open their home to unwarranted searches by BATFE agents. These are legistimate concerns, but for those that are willing to "comply", there is the option of a LEUP with alternate storage.

-John

I like this ... it made me laugh. Especially the "verse of FUD" line.

thanks, John

- iz :o)

If it were reallly true you would certainly be able to cite the law.

Hypocrite supreme!

But even if it were to continue as it is now with no restrictions at all on motors or peopellants for motors, NAR and TRA will continue to regulate it themselves to install unneeded and unwanted choke points, and position themselves to enforce for the government where they themselves refuse to enforce.

Jerry

Meglomaniacs need power over choke points.

Motors and propallnt afor motors are exempted as "explosives" by specific LAW 27 CFR 55.141-a-8. Same with gasoline and we all KNOW it can "seem like" an explosive in practice.

Except "exempt materials".

how has Mr. Kyte shown the ATFE to be ignorant liers, and how many and which Senators has he been able to have discard ATFE claims as fallacious?

I can't recall seeing a report on the Senators "questions and objections". Do you have one that includes what "information" specifically Mr. Kyte has provided the Senators to "counter the fears and objections", and specifically how many and which Senators have had those "fears and objections" effectively addressed?

I can't recall seeing a comparative analysis of the "multiple ways" you refer to, and do not believe the membership has had an opportunity to understand and offer input on which path to take. The risk/benefits are ours to suffer or enjoy, Mr. Kytes fees are paid from our funds, and the NAR and TRA boards hold a fiduciary duty to us (members). Why are we excluded from the decision-making process?

define "we"

. [ other questions snipped ] .

you not only submitted, you and Dick Embry *committed* to relying Mr. Kytes services with little or no accountability to the memberships. We were not apprised of

- his mandate in detail

- specific progress in terms of how many and which Senators had what positions

- how those positions were impacted by Mr. Kyes activities

- when and what strategic decisions were being made, reevaluated or changed

- what (dis)information Senators reported hearing etc, etc

do that we (members) could understand, provide input, and determine what additional actions we feel would be productive

and so you used Mr. Kyte to ...

how was this done, specifically (aside from the "rocketeers visit to the Senators", and "educate your senator with books and CD/DVDs" initiatives which were both grassroots efforts initiated independent of TRA/NAR)

as I alluded to earlier, this was an extreme case of "too little, too late"

totally independent of the membership, unless the respective boards conducted surveys on their private Section Leader/Prefect channels. Neither I nor any (non-leader) members I know were consulted.

yes, as I just discussed

Jerry will say this better than I, but I will take a shot at it

- speak only the truth

- present only the facts

- expose deceit and corruption

- act to preserve our rights

- act to safeguard the "national resource" of rocketry technology and practice

- settle for nothing less that what is right

- report specific results in measurable terms

- include the membership in all critical decisions

and in the words of Winston Churchill

"never, never, never, never give up"

- iz

Kyte gets paid success or failure, and NAR/TRA get to see the secret results no matter how mwmbwrs are treated or are impacted. The "principals" (fiduciaries) are always treated "special" as a part from mere consumers, users, members, and of course fiduciary beneficiaries.

Black box.

Black box.

Well summarized!

Just Jerry

We are nerarly 100% guaranteed this post falls into a black hole at NAR, TRA, Kyte.

izzy wrote: > how has Mr. Kyte shown the ATFE to be ignorant liers, and how many and > which Senators has he been able to have discard ATFE claims as > fallacious?

July 8:

Administration means EXECUTIVE branch. Somebody must have done SOMETHING.

July 29:

And I think Bunny already said Trip Barber was prepared to go into overdrive stomping out misinformation. Even Jerry admitted Trip is very effective at this.

BTW, where is my membership package?

Admitted? Effusively propounded!

Jerry

WHO wishes there was more to it than that?!! I haven't see that in any message I've read.

Except Jerry.

Ok John. Now it is you spreading the BS. YOU {now} have to have an LEUP to purchase a low explosive, PERIOD. YOU cannot BUY whatever you want. THAT IS FALSE. If it's your friend that has the permit, HE can purchase the motor, but YOU cannot take it home. That is not OWNING the low explosive as you could prior to 5/24 (in-state).

I agree, you can still --FLY-- whatever you want, BUT ONLY at a launch that the OWNER (LEUP holder) of the propellant is present. That is different, that is not LEGALLY owning the propellant, as you could before (in-state). If he gets paged from work while you're prepping your motor and has to leave, the motor goes with him.

I'm sure someone will say it's only a matter of semantics, but here it is... people who used to buy motors from a launch with a dealer (say Phoenix) cannot take those motors home to fly at their local, dealer-less launch (say Tucson). John-bob in Utah cannot buy from in-town, to fly at his ranch.

Rules HAVE changed and many people (in my state) are affected. Implying that is not the case is BS.

"which were still required previously for OUT OF STATE purchases". I didn't NEED an LEUP to fly in-state, now I (or someone I fly with) do(es).

Yes, only talking HPR motors here. Great wrap-up by the way.

By the way, FUD means Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt. It implies an intentional act. Such as the Justice Department's "hit a tank at 5 miles" report. I believe the term is being over used as I don't see anyone -intentionally- misleading {lying} on the requirements associated with an LEUP. There is confusion around the legal aspects of our hobby, which will no doubt increase as new regulations are thrown our way.

The difference is flying versus buying. I completely agree people shouldn't panic over -flying- when others are able/willing to get an LEUP and able/willing to assist non-LEUP fliers do HPR. I don't agree people are spreading "fud" to say not everyone is going to be able to fly HPR under these new requirements.

Joel.. phx

You've just oversimplified his statement. Those gorgeous shots in the magazines are NOT at club launches.

But he goes on vacation and drives around finding neat spots to fly at. You're implying that it's as simple as having a motor delivered or an LEUP holder present, when it is more than that when you are not at a club launch. Even if he has an LEUP, now he has to worry about storage where ever he stops for the night.

Joel. phx

Great BS job John. Point out specifically what I'm lying about:

"That great it (people with dealers/LEUP holders) works for you" TRUE/FALSE "(His message implies it's easy to do it that way,)Screw everybody else?" TRUE/FALSE "On-site flights with on-site vendor (can fly)" TRUE/FALSE "Didn't used to need that (but now do)" TRUE/FALSE "But them facts are all fud" TRUE/FALSE

I'll concede #2 is a stretch, but that's how I read it.

FUD. In the words of that dude from Princess Bride "I don't think that word means what you think it means".

LIAR. I didn't say ANYTHING was banned. I didn't use the word banned and I didn't imply banned. I don't see how you could have inferred banned for that matter. I don't have an LEUP (and cannot get storage) so I cannot help non-LEUP holders with low explosives (we will be happy to help any Hypertek fliers if you're in the valley for launches).

ExCePtion? What about a group of fliers that doesn't have a dealer. That happens all the time. But someone MUST have an LEUP and storage (since you can't return it to the dealer), right?

Wow, what's it like out on that limb? Here, at any site away from a major town is pretty easy to come by. If I have an field, with all the NAR rules being followed, the only thing I don't have is motors. I USED to be able to drive to a Phoenix launch and buy them. I CANNOT do that any longer. I CAN bring an LEUP holder, but that's not always possible. But that's just all FUD to you, yes?

Cool, what sort? APCP? Did you mix & pour your own? Is that HPR, not HRR or what is HRR?

Joel. phx

Who was it that contacted all the NAR and TRA members and asked, begged, and pleaded with those people to write? I got multiple emails and at least one snail mail request to do so. Both for the legislation and the legal issues. All from the NAR. None from ARSA.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Agreed. There's no difference any more between the tweedle-dee party and the tweedle-dum party.

Except that 11 (or was it 12) out of 100 DID come forward and support the original SB724 before it was hatcheted and shreadded. How are those 11 different from the rest? Smarter? Stronger? Secure in their seats? Or just have more common sense?

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Strange how an organization of "a few hundred diehard competitors" currently has just under 5000 members, the majority of them adults.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Me:

Cool.

The report that includes the aircraft impact study and the unguided rocket analysis usiung the Army's own experience is the one I would like to see pdf'd.

Jerry

Let's be honest Bob. How many of those are actually "arnchair rocketeers" with "legacy memberships to support the cause"?

How many are actual, active HPR rocketeers, say 3+ flights per year?

I am willing to declare the remainder model rocketeers.

Jerry

Speaking of, well, Metalica.... I took my son and a friend to the Sanitarium show at Seahawks Stadium here in Seattle. Wow! Just like I remember them, LOUD! We had crappy seats up high on the side, about stage front deep. Couldn't discern any lyrics, or the drums from the bass for that matter. I moved back the the opposite end zone for maximum stereo effect and the boys found a way to the floor. Linkin Park was great! I love those kid's energy. I saw them two years ago too. Metalica played well. The pyro stuff was awesome. James really fooled me when he went into the 'cheer', "gimme an M, gimme an E, gimme a T, gimme an A, give-me-fuel-give-me-fire-give-me-that-which-I-desire....

steve

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