Restarting an Unused HO Engine



I am quoting a dictionary of the English language, and we are both using that same language right now. Other than the occasional quaint term such as "tossing a wowser", the meanings of most words are identical in both the US and Oz. Were it otherwise, you would not feel insulted when I state that you're a throughgoing bonehead.

And you are very carefully failing to quote what it *does* say about the word "denatured"; if anything.

Let's see: the OP is presumably from the US, David answered his question correctly using US terminology (assuming there *is* any difference in terminology, which you have yet to demonstrate), and you think starting an argument about possible overseas definitions has any relevance to *anything*!?
If you're going to answer a question from the US in terms that aren't used in the US, all you're doing is muddying the water; not proving how cool you are, or even providing useful information.

Now that's just plain dumb.
Definition #2 is the one that specifically applies to the denaturing of alcohol -it says so right there- and that's the subject at hand, so *of course* it's the one that applies. (The words "especially to add methanol to (ethyl alcohol)." should have been your clue.)

(A) You have still not demonstrated that the word "denatured" applies to the treatment of Ethyl alcohol only in the US. (Lack of evidence is not evidence.)
(B) You only have to use the relevant definitions if you intend to provide relevant information. Heck, if you just want to demonstrate that trolls exist everywhere, you're perfectly free to post your answers in Swahili.
But don't expect anyone to bother with translating.
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On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:45:41 -0700 (PDT), Twibil

They are both denatured. -- Ray
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On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 19:53:04 -0700 (PDT), Twibil

They are both denatured. Keep trying. They'll still both be denatured. -- Ray
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Ray Haddad wrote:

Erm, "denatured alcohol" usually refers to methanol with an odorous addition, sold in a hardware or builder's supply store, while rubbing alcohol is isopropanol, sold in a drugstore.
Cheers, wolf k.
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wrote:

Both are denatured. -- Ray
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Ray Haddad wrote:

Oh, I see what you mean. Well, over here we use "denatured" for what you call "methylated spirits", and "rubbing alcohol" for both 70% and 90% isopropanol.
Now don't you go and do Greg Procter and claim we are misusing the language. We know perfectly well what we mean by those terms, so we don't get the wrong stuff by mistake, and that's what matters.
cheers, wolf k.
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On 8/19/2009 10:13 AM Wolf K spake thus:

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At the risk of flogging an already-dead horse, denatured alcohol is so called because it is "natural" alcohol (i.e., ethanol) that's been rendered undrinkable by the addition of poison (methanol). The idea, apparently, is to discourage people from making bloody Marys and margaritas from it. Rubbing alcohol is not called denatured because isopropyl alcohol is not drinkable as ethanol is.
--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

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On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:40:01 -0700, David Nebenzahl

And thus you prove me correct. But you will never admit it. -- Ray
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Ray Haddad wrote:

[...]
I don't follow your logic, Ray. DN has just pointed out that we use the term "denatured" to refer to ethanol with methanol added. Rubbing alcohol doesn't have methanol added, leastways not here. Just water, for the 70% stuff. So it's not denatured. Do you use "denatured" to mean the stuff is undrinkable? Or do you Ozzies add methanol to isopropanol? Or what?
Just asking wolf k.
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wrote:

And all I am saying is that both are denatured. Simple. Any attempt to add other arguments is just proving me more and more correct.
His argument has changed. Both have been denatured yet he now makes allowances that they are denatured differently. It's not "CALLED" denatured, is his new argument. But, the fact remains that they are both denatured and always have been. -- Ray
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On 8/19/2009 11:35 PM Ray Haddad spake thus:

The only argumentation technique you're using now is repetition. Saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it any truer. Sheesh, Ray, you're sinking to new lows with each new post.
--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

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On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 02:16:24 -0700, David Nebenzahl

So I should do like you? Change the argument just to win a point? Shameful, mate.
Denaturing is denaturing. End of story. Go play with your trains. -- Ray
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Ray Haddad wrote:

Ray, what the hell do you mean by "denatured"? I don't give a s**t what various dictionaries say - I want to know what _you_ mean by it. Just repeating "they are both denatured" is stoopid. Really. You must have some common factor or process in mind. What do you know, or believe you know, that makes your claim valid?
[...]
wolf k.
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On 8/20/2009 7:15 PM Wolf K spake thus:

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Lordy, look at what has happened.
I don't think I've *ever* seen the polite, accommodating and normally unflappable Wolf Kirchmeier actually get pissed at someone. Never.
Leave it to Ray to be the one.
--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

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wrote:

If you don't know what denatured alcohol is then you belong in another thread. Over there ====> -- Ray
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Ray Haddad wrote:

Ah, forget it. If you want to insist that a technical definition is the only correct one, go ahead. Real people use words in all kinds of ways. Know your audience and adapt your language to them.
Oh, I forgot - you can't adapt.
wolf k.
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wrote:

Wolf, why should I redefine a word simply because others do? It's not necessary except to them. Thus, THEY moved the goalposts here. Not me.

There's no need when the word is clearly defined and I used it as it was intended rather than changing it to win an argument. Which is why I simply stand fast instead of being led around by the ignorati.
Somebody said you were uncharacteristically riled up over this. Is that so or is this a genuine civil discussion? -- Ray
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As nature intended?
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wrote:

Is that the Depends(tm) brand? LOL -- Ray
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Ray Haddad wrote:

Because very few words have only one meaning. A good writer/reader recognises this, and adapts his writing/reading accordingly.

A word may be clearly defined by some group of technical users, but outside that group it will be used for other meanings. Which is exactly what happened in this case. You didn't or wouldn't realise that, and assumed people were using the word as you understood it (even though it's clear that even among the experts it has at least two meanings. I checked.) When people explained what they meant by the word, you accused them of misusing it and/or changing its meaning.
You just have trouble accepting that words have multiple meanings. I don't know why.

I'm not as riled up as I was, but I am impatient with your unwillingness to accept that this was not an argument about what some things were, but about what words were used to describe those things. IOW, a semantic one.
Trouble is, you can't win a semantic argument. The best you can do is explain, as carefully as you can, just what meanings you ascribe to words, and which of those meanings you intended. There are _no_ "correct" meanings of words, and I mean _none_. There are only meanings understood within specific contexts. And even within specific contexts, a word may have several meanings, eg "gauge" in engineering has at least four different meanings.
And keep in mind that over time, people use words for more and different meanings than the original ones. That's what's happened to "denatured", and it happened for the most obvious of reasons: as soon as you sell the stuff, you have to differentiate between the several varieties of denatured alcohol, or else people won't get what they want. The non-technical meaning has overwhelmed the technical one (which is a common fate of technical termns, BTW). So it shouldn't surprise you that your use of its technical meaning caused confusion. You insistence that you were using the word correctly, and everyone else was wrong or stupid, of course caused irritation and annoyance.
You can't tell people they're stupid for using a word in well-understood sense and expect them to love you.
cheers, wolf k.
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