NAR Certification Dates

AZ Woody wrote:
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That was Kosdon "West". All of the motors tested by NAR are from Kosdon "East". Once again, NAR agreed to honor TRA certifications. They did not agree to revoke certifications issued by NAR S&T at the whim of TMT.
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Can't you read? They are clearly marked as expiring at the end of this year in the NAR list: http://nar.org/SandT/NARenglist.shtml
They were originally going to lose their certification on 1 July 2005 (http://nar.org/SandT/releases/r82.html ) but NAR recently decided to have all general use certifications expire at the end of the year. Thus you have until the end of this year to use them.

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The NAR certified Kosdon were tested and granted the standard 3 (or whatever the term is for that size motor) certification, and is now at the tail end of the additional 3 year "use them or lose them" period of out of production motors. They will finally fall off NAR certification at the end of this year IIRC.
For example, from the NAR certified motor list, Kosdon section:
75 x 368 K777-11 5,R 1080.0 2400.00
5 Denotes certification for general use expires December 31, 2005.
A number of motors are in the final year of their NAR "consumer protection" period and will be unusable after the end of the year, including the Estes C5-3, a few AT motors that haven't been made since before the fire, and all the Apogee, Kosdon, and RocketVision motors.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it with religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal

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Not if you are a psycho interpreting things as you wish.

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Point.

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HOWEVER, they could have had a "ban in three years" policy to avoid that conumdrum.
By then everything from all brands would have been date stamped.
ALL certs should never expire except for PROVEN, GROSS safety issues.
Only the LOCAL AHJ should consider and referee COMPLIANCE issues. TRA should take contact with the local AHJ as defacto proof of compliance on its face.
Jerry
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Everybody is.

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So, if you are only a TRA member flying on a NAR range, Is your TRA insurance valid for flying such motor decertified, or not recognized as sertified, by the TRA?
Alan

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Ok.. Read my lips, and you might understand... "Combined list" is the common motors between NAR, TAR and CAR. Granted, Kosdon is the only exception I've seen in years, but NAR is the "keeper" of the list usable by NAR, TRA and CAR (the "combined list"), and therefore, should only include motors usable by EVERYONE (regardless of org). That's why it's called the "combined list" and not "What NAR OK's that may have been certified by others" list.
Jeeze...
You just cant accept that NAR S&T has problems, just like TRA TMT does. It's reality. Neither group is perfect! That's the point to Kaplow!

AZ Woody wrote:
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Now read my lips... "NAR Combined List!" This is the list that the NAR creates, for it's members, that is a combination of the TRA, CAR and NAR list. To my knowledge the other organizations are free to combine (or not combine) the lists in any way they choose.
Please show me a cite that makes the NAR 'the "keeper" of the list usable by NAR, TRA and CAR (the "combined list").' Please show me a cite that gives TRA the right to decertify a motor that was origionally certified by CAR or NAR.
In this case, the Kosdon motors are certified by NAR S&T so they belong on the NAR List and the NAR Combined List. If TRA wants to ignore motors certified by other organizations they need to publish their own combined list.
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> It's reality. Neither group is perfect! That's the point to Kaplow!
So far, the only thing I've seen here is support for what Kaplow has been saying all along.
Mario

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Correct.
None exists.
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None exists.
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But don't.
They just "make up rules as they go along."
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Maybe if you cited one.
On the claim that the test reports from several years ago somehow indicates no other motors were tested since, bunk.
Firstly the claim is false.
Secondly NAR publishes releases with EVERY motor renewal or addition or withdrawal IN WRITING and in a timely manner. These are the S&T releases like you recently saw for AT LUR and some AMW motor.
They are on the nar.org website as well as searchable on ROL and rmr.
So any claim of non-test should certainly be compared to these releases at minimum before making it.
Jerry

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No one has appointed NAR "keeper of the master list for all". NAR S&T publishes the list twice a year as a service to their members, and to any one else who cares to use it.
No reason that TRA (or CAR) can't make *THEIR* master list available, without the Kosdon East motors should they decide to do so. But they have never done so.
The Kosdon (east) motors still on the NAR list are NAR certified until the end of the year. Which TRA refuses to recognize contrary to their decade old agreement with NAR. WHy is this? Does Kosdon East (now known as Animal Motor Works) not have their paperwork in place? If not, why are both NAr and TRA still certifying their motors?
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty. -- Thomas Jefferson

kaplow snipped-for-privacy@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) wrote:
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Since TRA members declared the NAR list the "master list", does that reverse the illegal Kosdon motor decert/ban?
Jerry

kaplow snipped-for-privacy@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) wrote:
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Don't ask don't tell :)

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I did not write that, although it was in the message that I responded to.
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I asked a relatively simple question that you did not address, and others have not yet properly answered.
My point is, ah never mind. I've made the point on RMR long ago, and I don't have the time to restate it.
Alan

AZ Woody wrote:
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I find it interesting that your problem with NAR S&T keeps changing because of inconvenient facts.
position #1: NAR has uncertified Kosdon motors on its list.
When this bit of disinformation is easily dispensed with, the story changes to...
Position #2: There are no dates for decertification of the Kosdon motors on the NAR list.
This is also easily dispelled. Then the story changes once again to...
Position #3: NAR is maintaining an official combined list for all certification authorities (NAR, TRA, and CAR) that has motors on it (Kosdon) that cannot be used by TRA members.
This latest position is completely at odds with the very first sentence at the beginning of said list:
"As a service to NAR members, the NAR Standards and Testing Committee (S&T) publishes a comprehensive list of rocket motors certified for use at NAR launches in the July/August and January/February issues of Sport Rocketry."
Notice the phrases "service to NAR members" and "use at NAR launches". This makes it very clear that the list is for motors that can be used at NAR launches. Not TRA launches. Not CAR launches.
You seem convinced that NAR S&T has serious problems yet the problems you point out exist only in your mind, not in reality.

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"GOVERNMENT IS COERCION. Allow one group to use government to advance an agenda, no matter how well intentioned, and everyone else will want to use its force for their own ends." - Harry Browne for President in 1996!

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All I can say is thanks for keeping score like you did. I don't have the time or inclination to detail the guy like that. Good for you :-)

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TRA insurance only applies to TRA launches. NAR insurance applies at a NAR launch. If you are worried about insurance, you should not count on NAR's. Read the info on their web site if you don't know what I mean.

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Nope.
NAR insurance is good at all launches.
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Individual NAR insurance is secondary, so in many case I would expect your homeowners insurance to pick up pretty much everything. Section insurance is primary, and I would not really expect that you could use your NAR section insurance at TRA launches unless your NAR section were also a TRA prefecture. In this case who decides which insurance to use?
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This has to be the primary/secondary thing right?

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Usually the carriers work it out, else, the court.