pros and cons list for Pro38 and Aerotech engines.

J.Patrick Miller, the NAR NFPA Committee chair has told me that the NFPA codes do not apply to amateur or experimental rocketry...... amateur and experimental rocketry are outside the jurisdiction of the NFPA codes.....

and I quote:

"The NFPA codes do not apply to home-brewed motors. The (NFPA) codes are intended for motors introduced into commerce."

"...the (NFPA) codes do not address amateur rocketry activities where you're making your own propellant and making your own motors"

shockie B)

correct Joel:

from 1125:

8.5.1 A high power rocket motor or motor-reloading kit shall be sold and shipped to certified users only.

from 1127:

5.1 Sales Only to Certified Users. A high power rocket motor or motor reloading kit shall be sold to, shipped to, stored by, and used only by certified users.

6.1 Prohibited Acts. The following activities shall be prohibited by this code:

(9) Selling or transfer of a high power rocket motor or motor reloading kit to any person who is not a certified user,

other than the transfer of a single high power rocket motor or motor reloading kit for the purpose of user

certification

(10) Possession, storage, or use of a high power rocket motor or motor reloading kit by any person who is not a certified

user, other than the possession, storage, or use of a single high power rocket motor or motor reloading kit

for the purpose of user certification

you only need to be certified to fly HPR in NFPA states..... shockie B)

You're taking this out of context, by leaving out the certification requirements. A motor that meets these weight and performance characteristics, AND is certified, is a "high power rocket motor".

Any motor that meets those some characteristics but is NOT certified is NOT a "high power rocket motor". It's something else -- an amateur motor, an industrial motor, pyrotechnics, whatever. Such a motor can't be purchased and flown under the rules for "high power rocketry", but it CAN be purchased and flown under the rules for amateur, industrial or pyrotechnic rockets (whichever applies).

Ray, right now if I live in a non NFPA state, I can manufacature motors without adhering to the NFPA codes... Once the NFPA codes are law in all 50 states, I will not be able to manufacture motors unless I adhere to the NFPA codes....

Ray, right now I can sell these motors to non NAR/TRA members in non NFPA states.....Once the NFPA codes are law in all 50 states, I will not be able to sell these motors to anybody, because in NFPA states, ONLY motors manufactured under NFPA codes can be sold

manufacturers

Ray, all current motor manufacturers voluntarily adhere to the NFPA codes in the manufacture of their rocket motors, otherwise if they were NOT, the NAR/TRA would not certify them for use by their membership,..,

Lets take a look at Ellis Mountain.... They are located in Jacksonville,TX in Cherokee county.....As far as I know the state of Texas has not adopted the NFPA codes.....But Ellis Mountain still has their motors certfied for use by both the NAR/TRA..Why? because they must be voluntarily adhering to NFPA 1125 in the manufacture of their motors....for them to be certified by both the NAR and TRA...

Lets say they did not adhere to NFPA 1125 in the manufacture of their motors. Do you think the NAR/TRA would still certifiy their motors for use? Provbably Not....

actually you can purchase certified and non certfied motors in a non NFPA state... My BAd....

The NFPA codes 1122/1125/1127 say so....the IFC says so, the NFPA 1 Chapter

65 says so.......

shockie B)

No. These rules define "high power rocketry", not EX or amateur or industrial rocketry. I'm getting the picture that there is some considerable confusion about this. The fact that NFPA defines certain types of rocketry as "Model Rocketry" or "High Power Rocketry" in no way effects other forms of rocketry. The Model and High Power Rocketry codes merely provide a legal framework for allowing those types of rocketry without having to jump through all the hoops and/or restrictions that are required for other types of rocketry.

unless your a TRA or NAR member and honor the membership agreement you made

from

"I pledge to conduct all my sport rocketry activities in compliance with the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code and the NAR High Power Safety Code."

from

"I agree to pursue my advanced rocketry activities in conformance with the Association's By-laws and Safety Code, and that I will be an active member of the Association to the best of my ability."

-iz

that is not what it says, Ray

show us the parsing of cite that supports your position

- iz

RayDunak> aggregate performance falls within specified thresholds, OR contains motors

re-read the definitions, Ray. They have all been cited here

- iz

RayDunak>>4.5.1* Only certified high power rocket motors or

iz: the NAR membership pledge is being reexamined at the upcoming NAR BoT meeting....It will probably be changed to :

I pledge to conduct all my (NAR) sport rocketry activities in compliance with the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code and the NAR High Power Safety Code

as far as the TRA membership pledge is concerned, "advanced rocketry activites" I have no idea what this term means..... It doesn't appear in any of the NFPA codes ...... perhaps it is in the TRA By-Laws? anybody have a recent copy of the TRA By-Laws they are willing to post?

shockie B)

no definition or description of "advanced nonprofessional rocketry" is provided. However, there are numerous references to the term:

the Articles of Incorporation (AOIC) states

(in Article I) that the organization has the following official alias:

"The National Organization of Advanced Nonprofessional Rocketry"

(in Article II) its purpose includes a number of activities related to "advanced nonprofessional rocketry"

(in Article IV) an honorary membership may be conferred on individuals in recognition of acheivement or service in "advanced nonprofessional rocketry", and corporate membership may be those who are involved in "advanced nonprofessional or professional rocketry"

the Bylaws state

(in Article II) an honorary membership may be conferred on individuals in recognition of acheivement or service in "advanced nonprofessional rocketry", and corporate membership may be those who are involved in "advanced nonprofessional rocketry" (curiously, "professional rocketry os ommitted in contrast to the similar provision in the AOIC)

(in Article III) annual meetings will be held coincident with the LDRS national "advanced nonprofessional rocketry" meet

(in Article VII) a safety code for "advanced nonprofessional rocketry" shall be developed and maintained

I have no idea what "advanced nonprofessional rocketry" actually comprises

- iz

N/T will always have the power to prevent some individual's motors at launches. Yes. Just like a group of people buying houses along a couple of streets may decide to require trashcans be taken in 2 hours before what the city requires.

If you have a N/T cert motor on the shelf next to a 1/2 priced 3rd party cert motor what is going to be the topic at the next launch? Do you think people might want to start trying that new Axxx club which doesn't restrict motor use? And even if the motors are independently cert'd in only a couple of states, would that be enough to cause concern over loss/reduction of membership? Remember EX launches every couple of months,.. now nearly every month in someplaces?

I'm not sure I follow on this. They being N/T? If they were to accept any third party cert I'm assuming they would require that party to meet their superset.

I don't have the 112x to even speculate on that one. Interesting point. It would be as if T/A are granting a third party 'knighthood' for certs. Kind of a backdoor into states.

"certification"

I don't believe I said they couldn't. I would find it doubtful that any state would accept a motor from a manufacturer who said "we've certified this motor we made". What would be interesting in the 3rd party case is if the "importer" (lets just call'm that) were to label motors from different manufacturers and be the "certifier" of those motors. I do not see why not based on what's been posted (not much of 1125 I'm afraid). Perhaps you know someone who should look into that.

Generally (ideally) however, one should separate the certifying organization from the parties involved (yes I know what I'm saying, I'm not going there). For instance the insurance institute is tied to the insurance companies who make their money based on the crash results. It is possible they *could* skew results or configure tests such that they come out ahead. IAFAIK UL doesn't have any ties like that. Was it not ConsumerReports who found the roll over issue with the Samurai? I don't believe their agenda is along our lines, but maybe with money waived in front of them, they would perform motor certifications.

And keeping in mind that 'certified' in no way means approved for N/T club launches as they have their own certification criteria (as if I had to point that out).

Joel. phx

certified

NAR/TRA certified

certified

restrictive

laws that any

Bingo. This seems to come up a lot. NFPA codes provide a way to do rocketry legally. And, contrary to the first cite above, they don't really require NAR or TRA certification; they merely require certification by an authority acceptable to the AHJ.

They don't actually prohibit doing other kinds of rocketry, but if you do those other kinds of rocketry, you have be sure to follow whatever other regulations do apply, because NFPA rocketry codes don't.

So, for example, if your activities do not comply with NFPA 1127, you might have to follow the codes used by your local and state governments to regulate explosives activities.

Or, you might need a nonconforming use permit from your local AHJ.

If you want to be completely legal and you want to make your own motors, you might need to follow one set of regulations, and if you want to buy motors from someone else outside of the NFPA codes, you might need to follow another set of regulations. I expect it would be harder in the sense that you'd have to do a lot of legal research and ask a lot of folks questions that they probably would prefer not to have to answer. That's because no organized group has done that legwork for you, and you'll have to convince your local authorities that you have your act together.

IMO, NAR did the world a huge favor in the early days by working so hard to make rocketry, when practiced within a specified framework, unquestionably legal almost everywhere. High power rocketry was headed in that direction, too, until BATF got so overly concerned.

I personally have concerns when folks attempt to use those original frameworks to cover activities with demonstrably different risk profiles, because I don't know where the line can be easily drawn.

If you were to hear that your neighbor had plans to mix up a W-class motor in his basement, and claimed that no laws restricted him from doing so, wouldn't _you_ have some concerns? :-)

Why should the local fire marshall react any differently?

FWIW,

--tc

TRA will no longer certify motors made by a thrid party. Please explain what the difference is between a USR E6 motor that was made by Aerotech and an Aerotech F21 that was made by Ellis?

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Honestly, I don't know where in TRA "policy" it says that. But we've been repeatedly told that TRA won't certify third party motors, and they must be submitted by the manufacturer, not the third party that OEMs the motor. This is one of the tactics that have been used to block Jerrys motors.

As I jsut asked, what is the difference between a USR E6 made by AT and an AT F21 made by Ellis? It seems TRA is not implementing its rules in a consistent manner. WHich should not come as a big surprise to any one.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Are you saying that all those AT by ellis motors, from F21s to J350s and more, were NOT certified? I must have missed that news bulletin.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

TRA has this rule. NAR does NOT. I'm not aware that TRA allows relabelling of motors once they've been certified by the manufacturer. NAR does.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Hey Jerry, go for it. Have Ellis make some USR motors for you.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

I think that's probably due to their desire not merely to license users, but to restrict usage of "prohibited" materials as much as possible. A "we can't outright ban it, so let's regulate it to death" approach.