pros and cons list for Pro38 and Aerotech engines.



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Using your logic then even a CSFM approved motor under NFPA-1122/25/27 would not be translatable nationally. Only NAR/TRA can do that, right?
Thus bolstering the restraint of trade arguement that started this subthread.
My comment was tongue in cheek and not well marked as such.

Point!
Jerry
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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<snip>(was getting too long)
Actually, how I read it is that is that the only entity that can make it national is the federal government. IIRC, NFPA-1122/25/27 turns the power to regulate what motors can be used down to the state fire marshall. From there the state fire marshall can determine what AHJ he/she thinks is acceptable. Now most fire marshall will probably just point at what is in the appendix to who are sources for these certifications. Now if you started a independent organization for certifying motors, you would either have to have the NFPA make the change or to contact each state fire marshall to see if they will add said organization as a AHJ. (of course I am probably completely wrong, time to actually read NFPA 1122/25/27)
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No I think that is "mostly right". Except the Fed Gov is not really part of NFPA. It is a state thing. It is the state legislature that points for the SFM BTW.
Jerry
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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The only way NAR/TRA can "do that" is by making agreements with the AHJ in each of the 50 states. In most cases, the AHJ is going to be happy to have someone else incur the expense. If a new state lawifies 112x and determines that N/T have not been certifying to 112x they don't have to accept them as a certifying body.
Does UL or that Insurance Institute which conducts independent testing on car n trucks have any more power than 'reputation'?.

Ok, N/T were there first, and would apparently be the only "certification" body. But 112x does not say they're the ONLY avenue to certification. So, it's up to someone to say "we're starting a testing lab" or some manufacturer to say "I'm submitting motors to UL (or such) instead of N/T".
Complaining restraint of trade is not valid when the other options of 112x haven't even been pursued.
Joel. phx

Just so your cheek is the ONLY place it's been :o

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so:
1. NAR/TRA stillhave the powertoagree/not agree. 2. They could in principal make such an agreement with a "landowner AHJ" (thus translating nationally) if they were both so inclined and that AHJ tested to NFPA standards (as opposed to a NAR/TRA superset). 3. ASSUMING NAR/TRA have the legal authority to recognize other certs at all including CAR certs.

Show me where it is excluded that a manufacturer themselves can set up such a lab in-house.
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Are YOU a manufacturer?
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in
N/T will always have the power to prevent some individual's motors at launches. Yes. Just like a group of people buying houses along a couple of streets may decide to require trashcans be taken in 2 hours before what the city requires.
If you have a N/T cert motor on the shelf next to a 1/2 priced 3rd party cert motor what is going to be the topic at the next launch? Do you think people might want to start trying that new Axxx club which doesn't restrict motor use? And even if the motors are independently cert'd in only a couple of states, would that be enough to cause concern over loss/reduction of membership? Remember EX launches every couple of months,.. now nearly every month in someplaces?

I'm not sure I follow on this. They being N/T? If they were to accept any third party cert I'm assuming they would require that party to meet their superset.

I don't have the 112x to even speculate on that one. Interesting point. It would be as if T/A are granting a third party 'knighthood' for certs. Kind of a backdoor into states.

"certification"
So,
N/T".
I don't believe I said they couldn't. I would find it doubtful that any state would accept a motor from a manufacturer who said "we've certified this motor we made". What would be interesting in the 3rd party case is if the "importer" (lets just call'm that) were to label motors from different manufacturers and be the "certifier" of those motors. I do not see why not based on what's been posted (not much of 1125 I'm afraid). Perhaps you know someone who should look into that.
Generally (ideally) however, one should separate the certifying organization from the parties involved (yes I know what I'm saying, I'm not going there). For instance the insurance institute is tied to the insurance companies who make their money based on the crash results. It is possible they *could* skew results or configure tests such that they come out ahead. IAFAIK UL doesn't have any ties like that. Was it not ConsumerReports who found the roll over issue with the Samurai? I don't believe their agenda is along our lines, but maybe with money waived in front of them, they would perform motor certifications.
And keeping in mind that 'certified' in no way means approved for N/T club launches as they have their own certification criteria (as if I had to point that out).
Joel. phx

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Joel Corwith wrote:

NFPA 1125, 2001 Ed. (excerpted for editorial review)
-- 8.2.4* The examination and testing shall be carried out by the authority having jurisdiction or a recognized testing organization acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction.
8.2.5 A high power rocket motor, motor-reloading kit, or component that complies with the standards and requirements in 8.2.7 shall be permitted to be certified as acceptable for sale and use.
A.8.2.4 A nationally recognized testing organization that tests in accordance with NFPA 1122, Code for Model Rocketry, and certifies model rocket motors to the performance specifications outlined therein can include, but is not limited to, the National Association of Rocketry and Tripoli Rocketry Association, Inc. or their successor organization(s).
--
it appears that selection of testing organization is a perogative of the
AHJ, not of a national organization. If an independent lab (like
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Butofcourse. The question is if a Canadian Cert actually matters because a certification body says it does. A certified motor might not be flyable at a club, but if it's 1/2 the price of "approved motors" what are club members going to do?
Joel. phx
And more importantly if no state or federal agency 'approves' this Canadian cert board, what's to stop a new test agency from being formed?

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microparse
[ie any]

[Follows the rules.]

[Specifically NOT limited at the inception.]

[AND NO REPORTING OR INDIVIDIUAL APPROVAL REQUIREMENT. N O N E.]
Jerry
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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This is NOT about launches. It is about LEGAL multi-state market access at all, even outside TRA and NAR clubs.

Did CAR?

They accept a WIDE variety of safety critical industrial products exactly on that basis. It is tests we are talking about. Accepting test results of standard measures like thrust, case temp, delay and ejection. Sdtandard stuff.

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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wrote: <<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>

couple of

the
Sure, an athority to """"""certify""""""" motors either for each or for all states. But those motors could still be denied use at "my" launch because of reason 'Y' (today).

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That question came up elsewhere. Is CAR recognized in the US? How? Is a testing agency able to "approve" another testing agency? How hard would it be to show that you test materials to 1125 & 1127?

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sounds like you're all set then. Start with an 'easy' state and get motors on the shelves.
Joel. phx
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Jerry wrote: << This is NOT about launches. It is about LEGAL multi-state market access at all, even outside TRA and NAR clubs. >>
So Jerry, are you saying it's illegal to sell uncertified motors to anyone?
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote:

No.I am saying it is problematic to offer a national brand of the same construction, packaging and marketing to 49 states in the current environment TRA and NAR have authored and installed by their choice and efforts. That is direclty counter to their stated missions.
In theory they are supposed to promote rocketry access and adoption, but substantially curtail it as they ARE doing right now.
But I am also realistic and understand you cannot understand what I just said so I will let those who can understand and can relate it to recent posts by "my groupies" discussing NFPA rules and NAR/TRA cert rules and consumer access limitations that make no sense at all.
The original idea of consumer certification was not to restrict access. It was to show you can successfully not shred a rocket with an H/I/J and that you are no longer using known bad "Estes" materials and techniques on those H/I/J flights.
It has morphed into an access permit with a lot of requirements to get and a lot of legalese to make it enforceable under law in many and increasing number of states.
It has had the effect of forcing the HPR market down to the approximately 1500 screaming whiners too zealot to be scared away by TRA illegally demanding LEUP's and promising and failing to deliver magazines year after year. In other words ONLY really stupid people.
The "regular guy" has been shunned worse than Jerry Irvine at a TRA Cert meeting.
Jerry
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who you callin' a groupie? I ain't no stinkin" groupie..... shockie B(

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Joel Corwith wrote:

if in your AER rocketry activities your rocket meets the definition of a "High Power Rocket", then its motors must be certified as per NFPA 1125
NFPA 1127 - Code for High Power Rocketry, 2002 Ed. (excerpted for editorial review)
first lets make sure the code applies:
1.3 Application. This code shall apply to the design, construction, limitation of propellant mass and power, and reliability of high power rocket motors and motor components produced commercially for sale or for use by a certified user for education, recreation, and sporting competition.
1.3.1 This code also shall apply to the design and construction of high power rockets propelled by the high power rocket motors specified in Section 1.3.
1.3.2 This code shall apply to the conduct of launch operations of high power rockets specified in 1.3.1.
1.3.3 This code shall not apply to the design, construction, production, manufacture, fabrication, maintenance, launch, flight, test, operation, use, or other activity connected with a rocket or rocket motor where carried out or engaged in by the following entities:
(1) National, state, or local government
(2) An individual, a firm, a partnership, a joint venture, a corporation, or other business entity engaged as a licensed business in the research, development, production, testing, maintenance, or supply of rockets, rocket motors, rocket propellant chemicals, or rocket components or parts
(3) College or university
4.5.1* Only certified high power rocket motors or motor reloading kits or motor components shall be used in a high power rocket.
alot to say its does, and nothing to say that it doesn't
ok, so when is my rocket a "High Power Rocket"?
3.3.15.1 High Power Rocket. A rocket vehicle that (1) is propelled by one or more high power rocket motors; or (2) is propelled by a combination of model rocket motors having an installed total impulse of more than 320 N-sec (71.9 lb-sec); or (3) is propelled by a combination of model rocket motors having more than a total of 125 g (4.4 oz) of propellant weight; or (4) weighs more than 1500 g (53 oz) with motor(s) installed.
ok, so when it contains high power motor, or a combination of model rocket motors over a aggregate impulse or propellant weight, or the rocket itself exceeds a weight threshold.
ok, what is a motor a "High Power Rocket Motor" or a "Model Rocket Motor"?
3.3.17.1 High Power Rocket Motor. A rocket motor that has more than 160 N-sec (36 lb-sec) but no more than 40,960 N-sec (9208 lb-sec) of total impulse, or an average thrust greater than 80 N, or more than 62.5 g (2.2 oz) of propellant, and that otherwise meets the other requirements set forth in NFPA 1125, Code for the Manufacture of Model Rocket and High Power Rocket Motors.
3.3.17.3 Model Rocket Motor. A rocket motor that has a total impulse of no greater than 160 N-sec (36 lb-sec), an average thrust of no greater than 80 N, a propellant weight of no greater than 62.5 g (2.2 oz), and that otherwise meets the other requirements set forth in NFPA 1125, Code for the Manufacture of Model Rocket and High Power Rocket Motors.
ok, when any motor falls within the stated performance or propellant weight thresholds, but it refers to NFPA 1125, so lets see if that changes anything.
NFPA 1125 - Code for the Manufacture of Model Rocket and High Power Rocket Motors, 2001 Ed. (excerpted for editorial review)
3.3.26.2 High Power Rocket Motor. A rocket motor that has more than 160 N-sec but no more than 40,960 N-sec of total impulse, or that produces an average thrust of greater than 80 N, or that contains greater than 62.5 g (2.2 oz) of propellant.
3.3.26.4 Model Rocket Motor. Arocket motor that has a total impulse of no greater than 160 N-sec, an average thrust of no greater than 80 N, and a propellant weight of no greater than 62.5 g (2.2 oz).
nope, this doesn't add anything.
so as long as my rocket exceeds a certain weight, OR contains motors whose aggregate performance falls within specified thresholds, OR contains motors whose propellant weight exceeds certain thresholds, it is a "High Power Rocket" regardless of its construction, materials, origin or certification status.
and furthermore, it cannot be sold or used by anyone other than a certifed user:
NFPA 1127 - Code for High Power Rocketry, 2002 Ed. (excerpted for editorial review)
5.1 Sales Only to Certified Users. A high power rocket motor or motor reloading kit shall be sold to, shipped to, stored by, and used only by certified users.

yes, only
8.1.3 Model rocket motors, motor-reloading kits, and components offered for sale, exposed for sale, sold, used, or made available to the public shall be examined and tested to determine whether they comply with the standards and requirements detailed in 8.1.7.
8.2.3 High power rocket motor, motor-reloading kit, and components offered for sale, exposed for sale, sold, used, or made available to the public shall be examined and tested to determine whether they comply with the standards and requirements detailed in 8.2.7.
in any NFPA state, no motors meeting the criteria for "Model Rocket Motor" or "High Power Rocket Motor" may be sold or used unless they are certified by TRA, NAR or any other recognized authority of which their are currently zero.

sorry, but it's true (see above)

as long as they have a certification monopoly they do
as long as their collective vote outweighs any future organization on the NFPA Pyrotechnics committee they do

it is improbable that any third certification body would be recognized by the NFPA or AHJ if the current monopolists oppose it

sorry, but that is true, unless and until an alternate certification authority is recognized by the NFPA or AHJ (see above)

I think recognition of such an alternate authority unlikely if opposed by TRA/NAR, unless the SFM promotes it in the Pyro committee. But yes, it's theorectically possible but decidedly not the case today.

there is no alternate certification authority at present, or in the foreseeable future

other than to the extent that TRA/NAR are successful in conributing to certification requirements

yes
1. they prohibit certification of motors whose propellant whose hazard class is "unregulated"
2. they are arbitrary in their stipulation of who is an acceptable testing authority for the purpose of determining hazard class

theoretically, yes. Are they equipped (and willing) to do so, and who would fund it? you are talking about a supposition, not reality. The reality today is that TRA/NAR hold monopolistic control over all motor manufacture, sale and use in NFPA states for motors meeting the definitions provided in NFPA 1127 (and 1125)

NFPA states that the certification authority must be one whicb is recognized by the AHJ. Suppose you have a state that happens to recognize a facility, will other states recognize the same one? How many different facilities and tests will be required to satisfy all 50 states.
those certification authorities specified by the NFPA (of which only TRA and NAR are at present) automatically enjoy acceptance in all NFPA adoptive states.
so in a practicel sense, yes, a case can be made for restraint of trade.
- iz
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Ok, these seem to be the 2 points (add if I missed any).

There are lots of certified users currently flying certified motors. So this is not stopping anyone from flying a motor certified by a 'new' body. Even if that were not the case, how long would it take that Axxx group to set up a User certification body?

The fire marshal is not currently zero. Who has requested information from an insurance agency to determine which lab they would require motors to be tested at? Hmm? No one? Who has asked the BATFE of all people if they would be willing to test some motors? I don't suggest asking for a video though.
This point seems to be basing an assumption that the authority must be recognized by NAR/TRA for some reason. It doesn't. Submit motors to the authority of the state. Request from the authority of the state what an appropriate certification body would be. Describe that the 2 current groups are exceeding 1125 for motor certifications. Ask if UL would be acceptable.
I really fail to understand why we need to keep hashing this out when it's up to a manufacturer to get off their can and make things happen. They're obviously not waiting for the first point. And from what I know, most are simply following the rules of TRA/NAR (not that they like it). So if we're going to point fingers at the "current" situation, how 'bout it be the manufacturers who """bend over""" and those who don't """stand up""" {for themselves}?
Joel. phx
Thanks for the cites, I found 1122, but 27 is buried somewhere.

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On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 03:22:20 GMT, Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed

Based on this, EX is illegal in any state that has passed NFPA 112X unless you are one of the above exemptions or unless it is participation in TRA EX and they "certify" the engine before flight. Right?
Bob
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wrote:

Here's the tricky part with codes. Look only at any one part and you're wrong. See, you snipped this:
"1.3 Application. This code shall apply to the design, construction, limitation of propellant mass and power, and reliability of high power rocket motors and motor components **produced commercially** for sale or for use by a certified user for education, recreation, and sporting competition."
PRODUCED COMMERCIALLY for sale or use. EX by definition is not commercial.
Joel. phx
Good try though.

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