pros and cons list for Pro38 and Aerotech engines.

hi Joel.... comments/responses inline....

"Joel Corwith" wrote in message news:OLFJb.135$ snipped-for-privacy@news.uswest.net...

which part do you want the cite ?

And this is increasingly becoming ZERO.......and is part of the NAR/TRA agenda.... Once ALL 50 states adopt the NFPA codes, then the NAR/TRA will have jurisdiction over model rocketry and high power rocketry in ALL 50 states....and there will be no room for any other form of rocketry

My point here was the NAR has a definite problem with motors being commercially sold in which they do not provide the certification of ... or more to the point, commercially manufactured motors they have no control over.... There is NO law that says a rocket motor has to be certified by either the NAR/TRA to be sold and used in this country, other than the states that have adopted the NFPA codes... Its apparent that the NAR/TRA will not allow any commercially manufactured motors that are not certified by their respective organizations certifications procedures, to be sold in commerce in the United States.

You can ONLY purchase non NAR/TRA certfied commercial motors in non NFPA compliant states..... If all the states adopt the NFPA codes, then no commercial motors will be allowed for sale in those states without NAR/TRA certification..... The NAR/TRA utilize the NFPA to extend their control and influence over all commercial motors in all states......

let me provide an example...

Lets say tomorrow I decide yo commercially sell rocket motors....not modle rocket motors, but HPR rocket motors.... And lets say I manufacture in a non NFPA compliant state.....And lets say I send these motors to the DOT testing lab and get an EX number..... I now have legal commercial motors, except in states that have adopted the NFPA codes...why? Because ONLY NAR/TRA certified motors are allowed in commerce in NFPA compliant states....

Where can I sell these motors at? ONLY in non compliant NFPA states to independent rocketeers, ie NON NAR/TRA members.... But what happens when the NAR/TRA through the NFPA, becomes law in all 50 states? Then I could not even sell my commercial motors to non NAR/TRA members because the NFPA codes are now state law in all 50 states.....

Does anybody remember WHEN the NAR 1st started certifying model rocket engines? circa 1958........10 years prior to the 1st NFPA 41-L which became NFPA 1122..... Does anybody remember WHY the NAR started certifying model rocket engines? There was several reasons... Remember that the legality of model rocketry during its 1st 10 years was shaky at best. People in several states where actually arrested on shooting up model rockets!(they all won their cases by the way)... It was NOT a forgone conculsion that model rocketry would survive and grow....And the manuufacture of model rocket engines was a new industry.... The NAR decided that model rocket engines needed to be certified to ensure quality control, to make sure the model rocket engines where manufactured to met certain "minimum"standards for safety purposes primarily, as if the hobby of model rocketry was to become 100% legal in all states, there needed to be some mechanism to insure that the product was safe to the endusers.....And all the motor manufacturers at that time volunteered their allegience to this new certifcation authority, as they also saw the benefit of having the NAR logo/Name on their model rocket engine products... Imagine back in 1965 if Estes engines were NAR certified and Centuri engines were not NAR certified....Estes could use this as marketing and sales advantage over Centuri.. Another reason for the NAR certification was because back in that time period, the NAR was promoting Competition Rocketry...For you to compete, everybody must more or less be using the same rocket motor..... Another reason for the NAR certification was its desire to portray amateur rocketry as being unsafe compared to model rocketry.....Model rocket engines were "safety certifed" by the NAR...! Amateur rocketry engines were home brew and were therefore "unsafe" ....

non NFPA states to NOn NAR/TRA members If your state doesn't require testing of motors, it's

If your state laws include NFPAs then that's your states issue. TRUE What they didn't > realize they signed up for was certification of motors. Submit a motor to

If you seriously think that a state is willing to put up the money to do this or do you really want X number of states each certifying motors.......

Well yes what I wrote is true:

1. A NAR/TRA member in a NFPA state must use ONLY NAR/TRA certified commercial motors
2. A NAR/TRA member in a non NFPA state must use ONLY NAR/TRA certified commercial motors
3. A non NAR/TRA member in a NFPA state must use ONLY NAR/TRA certified commercial motors
4. A non NAR/TRA member in a non NFPA state can use NON NAR/TRA certified commercial motors or NAR/TRA certified commercial motors

The problem is #3 above:

If you live in a NFPA state, then you must follow the NFPA codes when you do your sport rocketry activities..EVEN if you are not a NAR/TRA member. Why? Because the NFPA codes are the State Law.

Here is where the restraint of trade comes into play.......remember the NAR/TRA created the NFPA codes for states to adopt as state laws.....So when State A adopts the NFPA codes, then I as a motor manufacturer must volunteer to adhere to the NFPA codes in my manufacturing processes to sell my motors,because the motors have to be 1st certified by the NAR/TRA for the motors to be sold commercially in that state. So what happens when the NFPA codes are adopted in all 50 states? #4 above would become obsolete.... and the NAR/TRA monopoly is complete nationwide.

See the problem is the spreading of the NFPA codes is,as once a state adopts the NFPA codes, you have to adhere to those NFPA codes regardless of your NAR/TRA membership status...and it is the NAR/TRA writing these codes and pushing their adoption by the states..... shockie B)

Top post for those who do not want to read it all agaain.

It is true what he says. I have checked his cites forthe past 6 months on the point and he is indeed correct.

My question is this. Given how TRA and NAR have behaved toward rocketry administration management, do you really want them to have an actual law enforced monopoly?

Jerry

Ditto, but it's getting a bit thick,...

What is the cite that "you cannot purchase commercial motors for your own AER rocketry activities".

The first part is right. There is NO law that says the NAR/TRA have to certify motors.

Again, false. The NAR/TRA will only allow motors certified by bodies recognized by them to be flown under their insurance.

False. Well, it's true that you can purchase non-NAR/TRA certified motors in non-NFPA states, but not ONLY.

False.

Not true. Well to the extent that they help define the NFPA, they do. But they are not the sole interpretation of that document (or needed be) and therefore are not "in control". More importantly, a third certification body would not have the benefit of "individual history" which is claimed by some manufacturers. Therefore additional rules applied by NAR/TRA would not necessarily be adopted by the 3rd body.

And THAT is false. Send the motors to UL and have them test to 1125. Or create a new testing body. Contact the Fire Marshal and provide the data. He will want to inspect the facility anyway and that's his job.

NFPA codes which require motors to be certified. Has nothing to do with NAR/TRA.

motors.......

The state can either 1) certify motors themselves 2) accept an 'official' testing service's results.

Often times it's #2 with NAR/TRA being the testors. Imagine an innovative manufacturer who breaks ground with UL. Now that manufacturer can go to the states and say "look UL is THE nationally recognized testing organization. Here's my results. By the way, these other motors were certified by these organizations and look at some of the documented/process inconsistencies".

True (but that was a gimie)

THAT is false. They must use a Certified motor.

That's true. You have to follow the NFPA. Has nothing to do with NAR/TRA.

Is there something inherently wrong with the NFPA codes? Does it stipulate poor or over restrictive manufacturing processes?

That is FALSE! The motors must be certified. It could be your local fire marshal. Then you could put an AZ certified sticker on your motors, but UL would look so much cooler, and be a tad more useful across the states.

Submit the motors to a testing agency and submit the results as "certified" to the state. NO restraint of trade.

Joel. phx

Please provide the documentation where the AT by Ellis motors were certified. Remember, they would have to be submitted by Ellis.

Bob

The way I see it:

Pro38 Pros: Assembled, Complete Motor: simply adjust delay, screw into motor case, and install igniter Adjustable Delays Cheaper Hardware Canadian Company: Operates under UN laws Not bound and limited by BATFE regulations Easier to "assemble" Extremely easy to "Clean" Low probability of assembly errors

Cons: Not as many "Colors" Chance of error in delay selection

AeroTech Pros: Accessibility: Lots of Hardware and reloads in the system Many "Colors": Other companies besides AeroTech making reload kits

Cons: Fire Company in Chapter 11 Bankruptcy USA company bound and limited by BATFE and DOT rules Unassembled incomplete motor to comply with federal regulations Incomplete motor: You have to buy fuel in many packages with liner and o-rings, Then buy a separate delay kit, Then buy a separate igniter Expensive Hardware Motor case and closures are limited by warranty to only AT Reload kits. Difficult to assemble, high probability of assembly errors Extremely messy to clean Chances of error in choice of delay Possibility of using wrong delay type "Bonus" delays

Basically the Pro 38 is a single use motor at AeroTech reload prices. The pros outweigh the cons in my book.

AeroTech was great for its time. Reloadable motors reduced cost and opened the hobby to many new people. The BATFE and federal regulations have basically killed the AeroTech reloadable motor. Sure they will emerge from Chapter 11 and start making motors again. But they will never have the market share that they once held.

I have no problem buying motors made in the 51st state. Heck they could probably make them in the 52nd state of Mexico and cut costs further!

-- James Dean Cory, D.C. TRA: 07839 L2 NAR: 75296 L2 snipped-for-privacy@msn.com

turbosnip

Yes.

Nope. They are NOT a regognized AHJ in NFPA-1127/1122.

turbosnip

Jerry

Failure to comply with this request allegedly constitutes a CRIME in any of several NFPA adoptive states where any such motors were sold or imported into the state.

Jerry

Please provide the documentation where TRA rules prevent the certification of AT motors to be labeled as USR.

Joel. phx

The TRA/NAR requirements are that the motors be submitted by the manufacturer, NOT by another party. If Ellis made them, then Ellis would have to submit them. They could be then labelled by AT.

The question is, where is the certification documenttion that Ellis submitted the motors for certification.

Bob

FUD.

1122 "1-3 Definitions. AHJ The organization, office or individual responsible for approving equipment, an installation , or procedure."

1122 A-1-3 AHJ (explanatory material).... : "Where public safety....individual such as fire chief; fire marshal;..." "For insurance purposes...inspection department, rating bureau..." "In MANY circumstances, THE PROPERTY OWNER"

You know, NAR/TRA isn't even mentioned. The property owner at the launch site OR his agent could "certify" the motor. For insurance UL is the most widely accepted testing agency.

Joel. phx

And if you don't like it, the last few pages tells how to submit proposals.

Please explain how this is restraint of trade.

Motor cert agency sir.

As a property owner can I certify motors too?

Jerry

AT released J350's for example that had NOT been submitted by --Ellis-- for cert as AT by Ellis motors. AT just "stuck their label on them and flew". By that analogy I could stick a USR label on a Kosdon by Aerotech motor and fly as well. No new certs needed and I designed the motor and the propellant!

Jerry

Thank you.

Joel. phx

Previously posted by Iz: "NFPA 1125, 2001 Ed. (excerpted for editorial review)

Really ?

Can you own a HandGun and keep it at home ? I heard you can not.

Are only the Criminals now allowed to have handguns in the UK ? I heard this is true.

Please let me know, because that is what I am being told is the case. If it is not, Please let me know so I can counter the press saying so.

I also read in the US press that the minister who banned handguns in London, now has had every member of is family mugged or robbed by criminals since this has happened. If you know this is also not true, I need to know.

I need to make sure the reporters here in the US are being up and up about the truth.

certification

How do you know the manufacturer didn't purchase a portion of Ellis, lease space in their facility, or have an employee at that site making propellant?

They don't exist because they weren't needed. Jerry wasn't involved.

Joel. phx

Well (this is by memory from the TRA edition of 1127, but I would be surprised if 1122 didn't have parallel provisions), the requirement for certification is expressed as something like "certified by an entity acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction". (NAR and TRA are listed in the appendix as possible sources of such certification services, but nowhere is it mandated that any given AHJ must accept their (or only their) certifications in particular.)

So... if you didn't have to answer to the fire marshal (etc.) with respect to things that happened on your land, then if you had a launch on your property it would be up to you under the code to decide whether any given certification was acceptable. (You could, for example, declare that CSFM-registered motors were OK, even if not currently NAR/TRA-listed...)

Of course, if you made arrangements to use someone's land and the availability of NAR or TRA insurance was a material part of the basis for such arrangements, then you would effectively be bound by contract to use only motors considered acceptably "certified" by the applicable associations.

-dave w

Did AT have stock in Ellis? Did AT lease manufacturing space? Did AT have an employee on site?

But then they would have either USR or Jerry associated with them. That would never fly.

Joel. phx

So all USR has to do is have an employee standing at a manufacturers watching the motors being made and USR can submit them?

Bob

Beat me to it David. Good synopsis.

Joel. phx

marshal;..."