New Chick CNC Vise


Yup
Not as well.

Over time they begin to move.

Not for your shop as the Chick CNC vise isn't made in China.

Agree. 5min hardly makes up for the time that Gibbscam wastes compared to a good CADCAM system.

I'm not assuming anything. I know the ridiculous low wage you get paid. Your boss is beyond cheap.

You mean the one you're too lazy to show up at and evaluate so you just make false statements like this and many others? LOL.

I wouldn't because your boss is too cheap to buy them.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
jon_banquer wrote:
Jon:
    You seem to want to chat about vises some more. OK, we can do that.

    Have you visited their factory and actually seen that ALL the machining operations are done in the US? If not, then how can you be positive that some parts, or machining operations, aren't outsourced to other countries such as China, Mexico, or the Philippines?     Maybe they're made 100% here, and maybe they're not. I don't know, and I doubt if you do either, no matter what their advertising or salesmen might say.

    Kurt covers their lead screw with a piece of sheet metal. Chick could very well have a better method, I don't know, I haven't seen one up close and personal. But we don't have any problem with chips jamming in the lead screw of our Kurts.

    I haven't noticed that. And we have some Kurts that been in use for over a decade. And if it moved .001, we'd notice pretty quick with the kind of work we do.

    Vises, we're talking vises here, please stay focused. Besides, I haven't seen much indication that you're very fluent with Gibbs in any case... so your opinions about Gibbs have never carried much weight with me. Didn't you yourself post that you don't know how to use Gibbs' Solid Surfacer?

    Not sure what relevance my wages have to do with the advantages you think the Chick vise has. But it's not a secret or anything, I make $23/hr. That's a little above average in this area, for the kind of work I do. I didn't become a machinist for the wages. There are plenty of other occupations that pay better. Anesthesiologists $70/hr., Dentists $63/hr., Pharmacists $50/hr. etc. etc.

    What does all that have to do with vises? But to reply... Didn't you say that you work in a small machine shop within a very large company that has branches all over? Is that wrong? Did I misunderstand you?
    And as far as being too lazy to drive 3-5 hours ONE WAY to show up at your shop... I probably wouldn't bother to show up at your shop if you worked 2 miles away. Just kidding... mostly. LOL     

    Like I said before, we're a 'for-profit' job shop and purchase tooling if it will benefit the bottom line. That's one reason I started playing 'devils advocate' with you concerning the Chick vise.
    Some of my concerns with the Chick vise follow.
1. I notice the "saw tooth" sides are open. On some jobs our vises become covered in chips as the job progresses. The chips get into the hollow area of the handle end of the Kurts. The chips don't cause harm, just have to blow them out when the job is done.     The open "saw tooth" area of the Chick seems like it would be a chip 'magnet', and appears like it would be a pain to blow out the chips from the hollow area and from around the slide push buttons. Would any chips interfere with the ratcheting mechanism? The pictures on their website don't show just how the mechanism actually works.
2. Also, it's not clear how the jaws are held on the vise. I notice a machined pocket in the back of the jaw with an undercut, which I assume is caught & held in some manner by a mechanism operated by the screw on top of the jaw support. Can you clarify just how that works?      3. It seems to me that if you were making more soft jaws for this vise that you'd have to get a custom dovetail tool to machine that undercut pocket - OR - buy any soft jaws from Chick ($$$) especially if you wanted long or tall jaws - OR - use the tapped jaw adapter which would cancel out the advantage of having a quick release jaw system since in the first place since you'd have to screw them to the adapter like a normal jaw to a Kurt. Also you'd have an EXTRA surface to worry about keeping square, clean, and chip free.
4. The one top jaw-holding screw uses a 6mm wrench (smaller than 1/4"), as compared to a 3/8" wrench for two 1/2-13 bolts on a normal jaw. So it would appear that the retaining strength/power of the jaw holding mechanism is less than that of two bolts in a normal jaw. Which might adversely affect the holding strength when using long jaws or real tall jaws.
5. The immovable jaw support looks like it's held down by two screws near the far back of the vise, as opposed to the Kurt's immovable jaw support being held down close to where the jaw itself attaches. That seems like it would make the Chick more prone to a lifting moment (leverage), especially if you were using a lot of pressure to clamp something or using tall jaws. (This is on the older Kurt's not the newer one-piece body construction of the "PT Series" or "3600 Series" that Garlic Dude was speaking about).     If I were testing the Chick, I'd put a block in the top part of the vise jaw, tighten it REAL good, and see if I could sick a feeler gage between the jaw and the immovable support, and between the immovable support and the base.
    Taking these few things into consideration the Chick "appears" to be a weaker design, and a harder to clean vise than the basic Kurt vise. IMO, it'd probably be a fine light duty vise when used in a relatively clean environment - if a little pricey for that application.
    Did you guys order one or more of these puppies? If so, I'd like to hear an honest evaluation of them after you've had a chance to use it for a couple of months.
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

You won't make the time to drive an hour and a 1/2 to see how wrong your bullshit assertions are and yet you want me to tour Chick's factory.
ROTFLMFAO

There are lots of things you don't know. That's what happens when you get lazy and stay in one shop for what 10 years or more now?

They do. It's obvious that they do by looking at the vise but you seem too lazy to even do that.

...because as per usual you're too lazy to make the effort.

We do. The lead screw is exposed on most of our Kurt's.

I have. Mount a piece and put some pressure on it and watch the dial indicator move.

John Carroll's work....
ROTFLMFAO.
No wonder you work for "coolie wages".

Gibbs Solid Surfacer is crap. I tried it and it was pure garbage. You're opinion on CADCAM carries no weight with me because you have a long proven track record of being too lazy to learn another system. You gave up on Mastercam after a few tutorials and you gave up on SolidWorks. All you can use is Gibbscam!
> What does all that have to do with vises? But to reply... Didn't you

I never said we have "branches all over" but this is too be expected from someone as lazy as you who surrounds themselves with drunks and religious idiots.

Nope. It's the one thing you got right in this thread.

Your a for very little profit shop. You do John Carroll's work because your boss doesn’t know how to get high paying work.

Wrong again. That's not all it's held by.
> Taking these few things into consideration the Chick "appears" to be a

You make conclusions based on nonsense and you've become an expert in this area.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

You didn't have even *one* counterpoint to ANY of Bob's points? He picked your miracle vise apart, and all you did was show that you have no idea what you're talking about.
When was the last time you bought a Kurt vise that DIDN'T include a chip guard for the lead screw? Oh that's right, YOU haven't ever purchased one.
Oh, you also forgot to answer my question: How many Makino horizontals are in YOUR shop?
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 07:08:48 -0800 (PST), jon_banquer

Jon, please explain bandqueer-energizer-dummy math for drive time calculations.
322 mile round trip is 1-1/2 hour drive time in babble-on-jon-land?
Saugus (BottleBob) to Chula Vista (Jon Banqueer) is a 322 mile round trip.
BottleBob did give you hint when he said in this thread it's a 3-5 hour drive ONE WAY for him. Of course unlike you Bob was thinking, he was taking into account driving I5 through LA, Orange and San Diego Counties. Depending upon time of day, realistic expectation of drive time would be 3-5 hours ONE WAY, unless he drove rush hour then it could be even longer.
Tom
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Nov 25, 2:53 pm, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Who in their right mind would drive *anywhere* at all to see a not-for- profit job shop with a bunch of worn out Haas verticals?
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Jon-The-Donk wisdom:
If your Poorly Maintained POS Machines can't hold tolerance go out and buy expensive precision vises for them......LOL.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
jon_banquer wrote:

Jon:
    No, I don't WANT you to tour Chick's factory. I asked you if you were POSITIVE that no part of Chick vises were manufactured in China. You replied "Yep", indicating that you WERE POSITIVE. I then logically pointed out that you COULDN'T know that no part of the Chick vise manufacturing WASN'T outsourced to China (or other foreign countries), without actually checking to see that ALL manufacturing processes were done in the US.     More concisely, you haven't proved that Chicks are 100% US made. It's just your unsupported OPINION, that they are 100% US made. Do you understand the progression, now that I've spelled it out in excruciating detail for you, eh?
    Heck, even parts of the Kurt vises "might" be outsourced to other countries.
    Now as far as how long a drive it is to San Diego from where I live. Google Maps says:
=================================================================Driving directions to San Diego, CA from Saugus, CA 152 mi – about 2 hours 32 mins (up to 4 hours 30 mins in traffic) ================================================================    So that comes out to roughly a 5 to 9 hour round trip drive.
    So your estimate of 1 1/2 hours is incorrect. To reiterate my earlier facetious comment, why would I want to drive 5-9 hours to see a machine shop? Take some pictures and post them if you want people to see where you work.

doubt you know either.

    I think we've had this discussion of the pros & cons of stability vs. job hopping a number of times before. Everyone doesn't necessarily share the same viewpoint on this issue.     

    I looked at the vise on the Chick site, the base is solid across the top but the sides are open. Don't you remember my comment that it looks like a "chip magnet".

    The Chick site and your comments haven't convinced me that its something worth looking at for the kind of work we do.

    The more modern Kurt 675's and 688's have their screws covered.

    I believe you, if you say your older vises move. Mechanical things wear out, especially if they're been abused. What would be a more fair comparison is to put your indicator on the new Chick and then on a NEW Kurt.

    What's he got to do with this vise discussion?

    I wish he could post the two parts he just finished, they are about the coolest parts I've seen in years.

    I've made friends where I am, it's like a sort of extended family. I'm going to miss them.

    Actually, Solid Surfacer is very intuitive and easy to use. I wonder how much of your displeasure with it was strictly program based, and how much was a bleeding over of your vendetta against Bill Gibbs himself.

    I bought the MasterCam book and training disc to familiarize myself with it to see if it was possibly an easier, better, and faster program than Gibbs. But my conclusion was that it wasn't. It was very non-intuitive and klunky (I believe that was the term I used at the time). I'm sure MasterCam has improved in the intervening years, but so has Gibbs.
    I studied SolidWorks partially on a lark and partially to compare it to AutoCad that I had used before. It pretty much blew away Autocad. But we don't do CAD design work so I just stopped putting more effort into it as my interests for other things took precedence.

     I thought you said you worked in one division of a multi-division company. If I got that part wrong then I apologize.

    What? That I wouldn't bother visiting you even if you were only 2 miles away? :)

    A shop we sometimes give work to, just went under. Another shop around the corner is having serious trouble. A sister shop a couple of blocks away that does the same type of work we do, went under last year. ADI (Big aerospace company 2 blocks away just laid off 40 machinists. But we're busy. Go figure.

    I said that's what it "looks like". So how else is it held?

    I've based my tentative conclusions on Chick's incomplete website and your own comments. BTW, you didn't answer my questions:
    How does the ratcheting mechanism work?
    How is the immovable jaw support held to the base, and what absorbs the closing pressure - key? pins? bolts?
    How are the jaws held on?
    Is the screw protected from chips coming through the open sides?
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I remember it and thought you were an idiot for making the comment. While the sides aren't flat they sure as hell aren't open:
http://www.chick-workholding.com/onelok_cnc_vise.asp

They have a shield. They are not fully covered. The Chick CNC Vise lead screw is fully covered when it's mounted on the machine.

Especially if they could have been better designed to begin with which describes a Kurt vise to a "T".

I'm happy to let you do that. You can even do it on a Sunday when there is no traffic and you can easily make the trip down here in 1 1/2 hours.

Our Kurt vises move .001 when decent pressure is applied.

Your boss is going to miss you as well. It's hard to find suckers with the kind of experience you have who are willing to work for "coolie wages".

... if you're clueless and ignorant on how better CADCAM systems work and you most certainly are.

How many years ago was this? Be specific?
Mastercam is easily as intuitive and is less clunky than Gibbscam for the most part. Chaining is the exception. While Gibbscam doesn't offer chaining what it does offer is far better than what Mastercam has. Too bad you can't figure out why ignorant idiots like Joe788 and Tom Brewer can't figure out why Gibbscam doesn't really have chaining and why dynamic and instant graphical feedback and control over your "toolpath road" in Gibbscam blows what Mastercam offers away. Far less modal than what Mastercam has as well.

Dude, you can't even understand why Gibbscam really doesn't have chaining and why what they have is totally superior to Mastercam's chaining. Chaining in Mastercam sucks.

You don't think in many instances. What you do is parrot ignorant idiots like Tom Brewer, Joe 788 and John Carroll.

Once again it's the only thing you got right. What part of that don't you understand?

More parroting of total B.S. spread by ignorant idiots like Tom Brewer and Joe788 and the drunken one who can no longer sell TopSolid, Mecsoft Visual Mill or Vero VisiCADCAM.

So are we. Very busy. Nothing to figure. We're a for high profit company unlike the company that you work for that's for little profits.

When they arrive you can see for yourself.

You opinion is uninformed and wrong. I do agree that it should be priced about $150 less than it is.

It works well.

When they arrive you can see for yourself.

When they arrive you can see for yourself.

There are no open sides.
http://www.chick-workholding.com/onelok_cnc_vise.asp
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 23:19:15 -0800 (PST), jon_banquer

Wow Jon, for an eggspurt you sure don't know much.
[

Jon did you even read Bob's post, the one you copied above?
I can show you how the geometry in GibbsCAM is chained and how to edit the chain.
Here you go, the program needs to know this as a minimum to chain: 1) profile start 2) profile end 3) direction 4) offset
So lets look at machining markers and what BottleBob describes:
1) start: "The white round marker is where the toolpath starts,"
2) end: "the black round marker is where it ends."
3) direction: "blue arrow is the direction"
4) offset: "they tell the tool to either go on the outside of the geometry, the inside of the geometry, OR centered on the geometry."
Editing the Chain: If BB clicks on the blue arrow and reverses it he just reversed the chain direction. If BB clicks on the white box and drags it to another position he just edited the chains start point.

You can call it "Chaining" (since that is the original widely accepted term) or you can call it "Machining Markers", hell you can even call it "Santa Clause" if you want as long as it tells the CAM program where the profile start, end, direction and offset is. All CAM programs have to know that information in order to calculate the offset tool path, by any other name it's still "chaining". ] -brewertr-
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Every Kurt vise I have ever used the solid or fixed jaw does move or "flex" .001~.002 when you tighten it. The newer 688 models are worse than the older ones (675 model?) If anyone's out there don't flex, then they are not tightening the thing for shit. That being said, they do move or flex in a repeatable manner.....use a torque wrench to tighten them & they repeat all day long.
I also think that for what chick charges for their vise they should at least include a set of soft jaws....I would hate to see the price of their jaws. Not quite as easy to make as Kurts.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Nov 26, 6:02 am, snipped-for-privacy@rise.zzn.com wrote:

Exactly the opposite of what Bob, posted. I believe Bob said if their vises move this much he would notice. I'll resist the opportunity to slam you, Bob because this post was what I was looking for when I started this thread. It's the kind of information that your pals, Tom Brewer, Joe788 and the ex failed CADCAM salesman who frequently posts drunk won't and don't post.

I agree. I' wrote down what their jaw price was. Keep in mind you can buy an adaptor and use standard soft jaws.
I should also note I believe Steve (Garlicdude) Kurt vise won't suffer from this because it's one piece. What I don't like about Steve's model Kurt vise is the lead screw is still not protected well enough and the vise jaws are not as easy to change. I do like how it can be put on it's side. Not sure how much we'd use this feature. I'll make sure this Kurt vise gets a fair shot by discussing it with my co-workers and the boss.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 07:09:01 -0800 (PST), jon_banquer

Jon, what is "decent" pressure?

What is the torque wrench setting to get your NEW Kurt vise stationary jaw to move .002"?
If you are using more than 80 Ft. lbs. you are exceeding the design and voiding the warranty.
D675
Torque Clamping Force Ft. Lbs. Pounds 10 989 20 1776 30 2848 40 3628 50 4365 60 5432 70 6111 80 6721

Giving a gorilla a vise w/ handle, cheater bar* and/or hammer does not make a precision machinist.
If I used enough pressure to get a Kurt vise stationary jaw to move .001"-.002" (in other words OVER tightened) a majority of the parts I have ever run would be ruined by the pressure or out of tolerance by the .001"-.002" movement.
Jon,
I know this is a foreign subject for you but you need to care for precision equipment and not abuse them, or else they, like your machines at work are not longer precision.
What happens to a bolt when you apply much more torque than it is designed for? Hint: It doesn't make the bolt or connection stronger.
What happens to a precision vise if you continually apply more torque than it is designed to handle? Hint: It doesn't make it more precise or work better.
D675 Operators Manual
http://kurtworkholding.com/downloads/pdf/D675%20VISE_MANUAL%20English.pdf
[ Operating Instructions
For proper vise operation insert the handle on to the hex end of the vise. Rotate clockwise to clamp and counterclockwise to unclamp your vise. This handle combined with the correct amount of torque will provide you with all the clamping force you will need to machine your parts.
DO NOT use any other type of pressure to open or close your vise.
The uses of handle extensions, air impact wrenches, breaker bars or hammer strikes are not recommended and will void the warranty if used. This will also cause damage to the thrust bearing and screw threads. If you need more clamping force you may need to upgrade the vise to a larger one. ]
You have used the term quite a lot seemingly without understanding so what exactly does "design intent" mean to you?
Tom
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheater_bar
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Correction,

no

Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 07:09:01 -0800 (PST), jon_banquer

To secure your place as our Energizer-Dummy?
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 07:09:01 -0800 (PST), jon_banquer

http://tinyurl.com/6rf2av
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

    LOL I'm sorry Jon, but even you've got to admit that was funny.
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Hope Barn doesn't get mad at me for infringement on his turf.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@rise.zzn.com wrote:

That's the stupidest thing I've read on Usenet so far today.
--
Black Dragon

I think pop music has done more for oral intercourse than anything else
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

I wouldn't know one way or another, but I do know a guy who put a pipe on the handle, and permanently hobbled a 6" kurt -- was difficult to use after that.
But, I think the idea of a torque wrench on a vise, for reproducibility, is perty ingenious. This would help across the board, ito of vise flex and also ito material flex/compressibility. It would also help level the playing field between Kurts and kurt knockoff's.
Btw, are kurt knockoff's outwardly identical to kurts? I have vises on a swivel base that pretty much resemble kurts, but they have 10 mm jaw holes and slightly different flanges. Are those considered knockoffs as well?
The chick does look perty neat tho. But they didn't quite do it justice, imo, ito of highlighting its features visavis kurt.
--
PV'd



>
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Polytechforum.com is a website by engineers for engineers. It is not affiliated with any of manufacturers or vendors discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.