You seem to want to chat about vises some more. OK, we can do that.
Have you visited their factory and actually seen that ALL the
machining operations are done in the US? If not, then how can you be
positive that some parts, or machining operations, aren't outsourced to
other countries such as China, Mexico, or the Philippines?
Maybe they're made 100% here, and maybe they're not. I don't know,
and I doubt if you do either, no matter what their advertising or
salesmen might say.
Kurt covers their lead screw with a piece of sheet metal. Chick could
very well have a better method, I don't know, I haven't seen one up
close and personal. But we don't have any problem with chips jamming
in the lead screw of our Kurts.
I haven't noticed that. And we have some Kurts that been in use for
over a decade. And if it moved .001, we'd notice pretty quick with the
kind of work we do.
Vises, we're talking vises here, please stay focused. Besides, I
haven't seen much indication that you're very fluent with Gibbs in any
case... so your opinions about Gibbs have never carried much weight
with me. Didn't you yourself post that you don't know how to use
Gibbs' Solid Surfacer?
Not sure what relevance my wages have to do with the advantages you
think the Chick vise has. But it's not a secret or anything, I make
$23/hr. That's a little above average in this area, for the kind of
work I do. I didn't become a machinist for the wages. There are
plenty of other occupations that pay better. Anesthesiologists
$70/hr., Dentists $63/hr., Pharmacists $50/hr. etc. etc.
What does all that have to do with vises? But to reply... Didn't you
say that you work in a small machine shop within a very large company
that has branches all over? Is that wrong? Did I misunderstand you?
And as far as being too lazy to drive 3-5 hours ONE WAY to show up at
your shop... I probably wouldn't bother to show up at your shop if you
worked 2 miles away. Just kidding... mostly. LOL
Like I said before, we're a 'for-profit' job shop and purchase tooling
if it will benefit the bottom line. That's one reason I started
playing 'devils advocate' with you concerning the Chick vise.
Some of my concerns with the Chick vise follow.
1. I notice the "saw tooth" sides are open. On some jobs our vises
become covered in chips as the job progresses. The chips get into the
hollow area of the handle end of the Kurts. The chips don't cause
harm, just have to blow them out when the job is done.
The open "saw tooth" area of the Chick seems like it would be a chip
'magnet', and appears like it would be a pain to blow out the chips
from the hollow area and from around the slide push buttons. Would any
chips interfere with the ratcheting mechanism? The pictures on their
website don't show just how the mechanism actually works.
2. Also, it's not clear how the jaws are held on the vise. I notice a
machined pocket in the back of the jaw with an undercut, which I assume
is caught & held in some manner by a mechanism operated by the screw on
top of the jaw support. Can you clarify just how that works?
3. It seems to me that if you were making more soft jaws for this vise
that you'd have to get a custom dovetail tool to machine that undercut
pocket - OR - buy any soft jaws from Chick ($$$) especially if you
wanted long or tall jaws - OR - use the tapped jaw adapter which would
cancel out the advantage of having a quick release jaw system since in
the first place since you'd have to screw them to the adapter like a
normal jaw to a Kurt. Also you'd have an EXTRA surface to worry about
keeping square, clean, and chip free.
4. The one top jaw-holding screw uses a 6mm wrench (smaller than
1/4"), as compared to a 3/8" wrench for two 1/2-13 bolts on a normal
jaw. So it would appear that the retaining strength/power of the jaw
holding mechanism is less than that of two bolts in a normal jaw.
Which might adversely affect the holding strength when using long jaws
or real tall jaws.
5. The immovable jaw support looks like it's held down by two screws
near the far back of the vise, as opposed to the Kurt's immovable jaw
support being held down close to where the jaw itself attaches. That
seems like it would make the Chick more prone to a lifting moment
(leverage), especially if you were using a lot of pressure to clamp
something or using tall jaws. (This is on the older Kurt's not the
newer one-piece body construction of the "PT Series" or "3600 Series"
that Garlic Dude was speaking about).
If I were testing the Chick, I'd put a block in the top part of the
vise jaw, tighten it REAL good, and see if I could sick a feeler gage
between the jaw and the immovable support, and between the immovable
support and the base.
Taking these few things into consideration the Chick "appears" to be a
weaker design, and a harder to clean vise than the basic Kurt vise.
IMO, it'd probably be a fine light duty vise when used in a relatively
clean environment - if a little pricey for that application.
Did you guys order one or more of these puppies? If so, I'd like to
hear an honest evaluation of them after you've had a chance to use it
for a couple of months.
You won't make the time to drive an hour and a 1/2 to see how wrong
assertions are and yet you want me to tour Chick's factory.
There are lots of things you don't know. That's what happens when you
get lazy and stay in one shop for what 10 years or more now?
They do. It's obvious that they do by looking at the vise but you seem
too lazy to even do that.
...because as per usual you're too lazy to make the effort.
We do. The lead screw is exposed on most of our Kurt's.
I have. Mount a piece and put some pressure on it and watch the dial
John Carroll's work....
No wonder you work for "coolie wages".
Gibbs Solid Surfacer is crap. I tried it and it was pure garbage.
You're opinion on CADCAM carries no weight with me because you have a
long proven track record of being too lazy to learn another system.
You gave up on Mastercam after a few tutorials and you gave up on
SolidWorks. All you can use is Gibbscam!
> What does all that have to do with vises? But to reply...
I never said we have "branches all over" but this is too be expected
from someone as lazy as you who surrounds themselves with drunks and
Nope. It's the one thing you got right in this thread.
Your a for very little profit shop. You do John Carroll's work because
your boss doesnt know how to get high paying work.
Wrong again. That's not all it's held by.
> Taking these few things into consideration the Chick "appears" to
You make conclusions based on nonsense and you've become an expert in
San Diego, CA
You didn't have even *one* counterpoint to ANY of Bob's points? He
picked your miracle vise apart, and all you did was show that you have
no idea what you're talking about.
When was the last time you bought a Kurt vise that DIDN'T include a
chip guard for the lead screw? Oh that's right, YOU haven't ever
Oh, you also forgot to answer my question: How many Makino horizontals
are in YOUR shop?
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 07:08:48 -0800 (PST), jon_banquer
Jon, please explain bandqueer-energizer-dummy math for drive time
322 mile round trip is 1-1/2 hour drive time in babble-on-jon-land?
Saugus (BottleBob) to Chula Vista (Jon Banqueer) is a 322 mile round
BottleBob did give you hint when he said in this thread it's a 3-5
hour drive ONE WAY for him. Of course unlike you Bob was thinking, he
was taking into account driving I5 through LA, Orange and San Diego
Counties. Depending upon time of day, realistic expectation of drive
time would be 3-5 hours ONE WAY, unless he drove rush hour then it
could be even longer.
No, I don't WANT you to tour Chick's factory. I asked you if you were
POSITIVE that no part of Chick vises were manufactured in China. You
replied "Yep", indicating that you WERE POSITIVE. I then logically
pointed out that you COULDN'T know that no part of the Chick vise
manufacturing WASN'T outsourced to China (or other foreign countries),
without actually checking to see that ALL manufacturing processes were
done in the US.
More concisely, you haven't proved that Chicks are 100% US made. It's
just your unsupported OPINION, that they are 100% US made. Do you
understand the progression, now that I've spelled it out in
excruciating detail for you, eh?
Heck, even parts of the Kurt vises "might" be outsourced to other
Now as far as how long a drive it is to San Diego from where I live.
Google Maps says:
=================================================================Driving directions to San Diego, CA from Saugus, CA
152 mi about 2 hours 32 mins (up to 4 hours 30 mins in traffic)
================================================================ So that comes out to roughly a 5 to 9 hour round trip drive.
So your estimate of 1 1/2 hours is incorrect. To reiterate my earlier
facetious comment, why would I want to drive 5-9 hours to see a machine
shop? Take some pictures and post them if you want people to see where
doubt you know either.
I think we've had this discussion of the pros & cons of stability vs.
job hopping a number of times before. Everyone doesn't necessarily
share the same viewpoint on this issue.
I looked at the vise on the Chick site, the base is solid across the
top but the sides are open. Don't you remember my comment that it
looks like a "chip magnet".
The Chick site and your comments haven't convinced me that its
something worth looking at for the kind of work we do.
The more modern Kurt 675's and 688's have their screws covered.
I believe you, if you say your older vises move. Mechanical things
wear out, especially if they're been abused. What would be a more fair
comparison is to put your indicator on the new Chick and then on a NEW
What's he got to do with this vise discussion?
I wish he could post the two parts he just finished, they are about
the coolest parts I've seen in years.
I've made friends where I am, it's like a sort of extended family.
I'm going to miss them.
Actually, Solid Surfacer is very intuitive and easy to use. I wonder
how much of your displeasure with it was strictly program based, and
how much was a bleeding over of your vendetta against Bill Gibbs himself.
I bought the MasterCam book and training disc to familiarize myself
with it to see if it was possibly an easier, better, and faster program
than Gibbs. But my conclusion was that it wasn't. It was very
non-intuitive and klunky (I believe that was the term I used at the
time). I'm sure MasterCam has improved in the intervening years, but
so has Gibbs.
I studied SolidWorks partially on a lark and partially to compare it
to AutoCad that I had used before. It pretty much blew away Autocad.
But we don't do CAD design work so I just stopped putting more effort
into it as my interests for other things took precedence.
I thought you said you worked in one division of a multi-division
company. If I got that part wrong then I apologize.
What? That I wouldn't bother visiting you even if you were only 2
miles away? :)
A shop we sometimes give work to, just went under. Another shop
around the corner is having serious trouble. A sister shop a couple of
blocks away that does the same type of work we do, went under last
year. ADI (Big aerospace company 2 blocks away just laid off 40
machinists. But we're busy. Go figure.
I said that's what it "looks like". So how else is it held?
I've based my tentative conclusions on Chick's incomplete website and
your own comments. BTW, you didn't answer my questions:
How does the ratcheting mechanism work?
How is the immovable jaw support held to the base, and what absorbs
the closing pressure - key? pins? bolts?
How are the jaws held on?
Is the screw protected from chips coming through the open sides?
I remember it and thought you were an idiot for making the comment.
While the sides aren't flat they sure as hell aren't open:
They have a shield. They are not fully covered. The Chick CNC Vise
lead screw is fully covered when it's mounted on the machine.
Especially if they could have been better designed to begin with which
describes a Kurt vise to a "T".
I'm happy to let you do that. You can even do it on a Sunday when
there is no traffic and you can easily make the trip down here in 1
Our Kurt vises move .001 when decent pressure is applied.
Your boss is going to miss you as well. It's hard to find suckers with
the kind of experience you have who are willing to work for "coolie
... if you're clueless and ignorant on how better CADCAM systems work
and you most certainly are.
How many years ago was this? Be specific?
Mastercam is easily as intuitive and is less clunky than Gibbscam for
the most part. Chaining is the exception. While Gibbscam doesn't offer
chaining what it does offer is far better than what Mastercam has. Too
bad you can't figure out why ignorant idiots like Joe788 and Tom
Brewer can't figure out why Gibbscam doesn't really have chaining and
why dynamic and instant graphical feedback and control over your
"toolpath road" in Gibbscam blows what Mastercam offers away. Far less
modal than what Mastercam has as well.
Dude, you can't even understand why Gibbscam really doesn't have
chaining and why what they have is totally superior to Mastercam's
chaining. Chaining in Mastercam sucks.
You don't think in many instances. What you do is parrot ignorant
idiots like Tom Brewer, Joe 788 and John Carroll.
Once again it's the only thing you got right. What part of that don't
More parroting of total B.S. spread by ignorant idiots like Tom Brewer
and Joe788 and the drunken one who can no longer sell TopSolid,
Mecsoft Visual Mill or Vero VisiCADCAM.
So are we. Very busy. Nothing to figure. We're a for high profit
company unlike the company that you work for that's for little
When they arrive you can see for yourself.
You opinion is uninformed and wrong. I do agree that it should be
$150 less than it is.
It works well.
When they arrive you can see for yourself.
When they arrive you can see for yourself.
There are no open sides.
San Diego, CA
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 23:19:15 -0800 (PST), jon_banquer
Wow Jon, for an eggspurt you sure don't know much.
Jon did you even read Bob's post, the one you copied above?
I can show you how the geometry in GibbsCAM is chained and how to edit
Here you go, the program needs to know this as a minimum to chain:
1) profile start
2) profile end
So lets look at machining markers and what BottleBob describes:
"The white round marker is where the toolpath starts,"
"the black round marker is where it ends."
"blue arrow is the direction"
"they tell the tool to either go on the outside of the
geometry, the inside of the geometry, OR centered on the geometry."
Editing the Chain:
If BB clicks on the blue arrow and reverses it he just
reversed the chain direction.
If BB clicks on the white box and drags it to another
position he just edited the chains start point.
You can call it "Chaining" (since that is the original widely accepted
term) or you can call it "Machining Markers", hell you can even
call it "Santa Clause" if you want as long as it tells the CAM program
where the profile start, end, direction and offset is. All CAM
programs have to know that information in order to calculate the
offset tool path, by any other name it's still "chaining".
Every Kurt vise I have ever used the solid or fixed jaw does move or
"flex" .001~.002 when you tighten it. The newer 688 models are worse
than the older ones (675 model?) If anyone's out there don't flex,
then they are not tightening the thing for shit. That being said, they
do move or flex in a repeatable manner.....use a torque wrench to
tighten them & they repeat all day long.
I also think that for what chick charges for their vise they should at
least include a set of soft jaws....I would hate to see the price of
their jaws. Not quite as easy to make as Kurts.
On Nov 26, 6:02 am, email@example.com wrote:
Exactly the opposite of what Bob, posted. I believe Bob said if their
vises move this much he would notice.
I'll resist the opportunity to slam you, Bob because this post was
what I was looking for when I started this
thread. It's the kind of information that your pals, Tom Brewer,
Joe788 and the ex failed CADCAM salesman
who frequently posts drunk won't and don't post.
I agree. I' wrote down what their jaw price was. Keep in mind you can
buy an adaptor and use standard soft jaws.
I should also note I believe Steve (Garlicdude) Kurt vise won't suffer
from this because it's one piece. What I don't like
about Steve's model Kurt vise is the lead screw is still not protected
well enough and the vise jaws are not as easy to
change. I do like how it can be put on it's side. Not sure how much
we'd use this feature. I'll make sure this Kurt vise
gets a fair shot by discussing it with my co-workers and the boss.
San Diego, CA
On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 07:09:01 -0800 (PST), jon_banquer
Jon, what is "decent" pressure?
What is the torque wrench setting to get your NEW Kurt vise stationary
jaw to move .002"?
If you are using more than 80 Ft. lbs. you are exceeding the design
and voiding the warranty.
Torque Clamping Force
Ft. Lbs. Pounds
Giving a gorilla a vise w/ handle, cheater bar* and/or hammer does not
make a precision machinist.
If I used enough pressure to get a Kurt vise stationary jaw to move
.001"-.002" (in other words OVER tightened) a majority of the parts I
have ever run would be ruined by the pressure or out of tolerance by
the .001"-.002" movement.
I know this is a foreign subject for you but you need to care for
precision equipment and not abuse them, or else they, like your
machines at work are not longer precision.
What happens to a bolt when you apply much more torque than it is
designed for? Hint: It doesn't make the bolt or connection stronger.
What happens to a precision vise if you continually apply more torque
than it is designed to handle? Hint: It doesn't make it more precise
or work better.
D675 Operators Manual
For proper vise operation insert the handle on to the hex end of
the vise. Rotate clockwise to clamp and counterclockwise to unclamp
your vise. This handle combined with the correct amount
of torque will provide you with all the clamping force you will
need to machine your parts.
DO NOT use any other type of pressure to open or close your vise.
The uses of handle extensions, air impact wrenches, breaker
bars or hammer strikes are not recommended and will void
the warranty if used. This will also cause damage to the thrust
bearing and screw threads. If you need more clamping force you
may need to upgrade the vise to a larger one.
You have used the term quite a lot seemingly without understanding so
what exactly does "design intent" mean to you?
I wouldn't know one way or another, but I do know a guy who put a pipe on
the handle, and permanently hobbled a 6" kurt -- was difficult to use after
But, I think the idea of a torque wrench on a vise, for reproducibility, is
This would help across the board, ito of vise flex and also ito material
It would also help level the playing field between Kurts and kurt
Btw, are kurt knockoff's outwardly identical to kurts?
I have vises on a swivel base that pretty much resemble kurts, but they have
10 mm jaw holes and slightly different flanges. Are those considered
knockoffs as well?
The chick does look perty neat tho. But they didn't quite do it justice,
imo, ito of highlighting its features visavis kurt.
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