New Chick CNC Vise

I've always attributed it to him just bein plain nuts.

You're correct, YOU are debating.....he's just ramblin aimlessly about anything to avoid answering your direct questions/concerns about the Chick Vise. Of course....as usual....he thinks nobody notices this.....Its what makes him so damn comical.

I gotta admit....I've always found it "interesting" at how sensible and logical you try to talk to him while he's insanely ramblin and babblin and slobberin all over himself tryin to get under your skin. I personally have always thought its just your own personal BOTTLEBOB way of "gettin all up in his head" just for your own pleasure. Am I close?

Here's a thought......Since somehow lil jonnie thinks he can make a round trip from your shop to his in only 1 1/2 hours, why not have him fire up the ol Saab and come pick you up at your shop and take you to his shop so he can show you his "broom". Maybe you two can do a lil "bonding" on the drive back and forth. Don't forget the video camera......well.....for the rest of us. :)

Barn

I remember it and thought you were an idiot for making the comment. While the sides aren't flat they sure as hell aren't open:

They have a shield. They are not fully covered. The Chick CNC Vise lead screw is fully covered when it's mounted on the machine.

Especially if they could have been better designed to begin with which describes a Kurt vise to a "T".

and then on a NEW

I'm happy to let you do that. You can even do it on a Sunday when there is no traffic and you can easily make the trip down here in 1

1/2 hours.

Our Kurt vises move .001 when decent pressure is applied.

Your boss is going to miss you as well. It's hard to find suckers with the kind of experience you have who are willing to work for "coolie wages".

... if you're clueless and ignorant on how better CADCAM systems work and you most certainly are.

How many years ago was this? Be specific?

Mastercam is easily as intuitive and is less clunky than Gibbscam for the most part. Chaining is the exception. While Gibbscam doesn't offer chaining what it does offer is far better than what Mastercam has. Too bad you can't figure out why ignorant idiots like Joe788 and Tom Brewer can't figure out why Gibbscam doesn't really have chaining and why dynamic and instant graphical feedback and control over your "toolpath road" in Gibbscam blows what Mastercam offers away. Far less modal than what Mastercam has as well.

Dude, you can't even understand why Gibbscam really doesn't have chaining and why what they have is totally superior to Mastercam's chaining. Chaining in Mastercam sucks.

You don't think in many instances. What you do is parrot ignorant idiots like Tom Brewer, Joe 788 and John Carroll.

Once again it's the only thing you got right. What part of that don't you understand?

More parroting of total B.S. spread by ignorant idiots like Tom Brewer and Joe788 and the drunken one who can no longer sell TopSolid, Mecsoft Visual Mill or Vero VisiCADCAM.

So are we. Very busy. Nothing to figure. We're a for high profit company unlike the company that you work for that's for little profits.

When they arrive you can see for yourself.

You opinion is uninformed and wrong. I do agree that it should be priced about $150 less than it is.

It works well.

When they arrive you can see for yourself.

When they arrive you can see for yourself.

There are no open sides.

Jon Banquer San Diego, CA

t the time used

I always object to ignorant lying idiots like Joe788 who try and rewrite history, post with alias so they can't be sued for their many lies and have no clue about CADCAM.

Jon Banquer San Diego, CA

Wow Jon, for an eggspurt you sure don't know much.

[

Jon did you even read Bob's post, the one you copied above?

I can show you how the geometry in GibbsCAM is chained and how to edit the chain.

Here you go, the program needs to know this as a minimum to chain: 1) profile start 2) profile end 3) direction 4) offset

So lets look at machining markers and what BottleBob describes:

1) start: "The white round marker is where the toolpath starts," 2) end: "the black round marker is where it ends." 3) direction: "blue arrow is the direction" 4) offset: "they tell the tool to either go on the outside of the geometry, the inside of the geometry, OR centered on the geometry."

Editing the Chain: If BB clicks on the blue arrow and reverses it he just reversed the chain direction. If BB clicks on the white box and drags it to another position he just edited the chains start point.

You can call it "Chaining" (since that is the original widely accepted term) or you can call it "Machining Markers", hell you can even call it "Santa Clause" if you want as long as it tells the CAM program where the profile start, end, direction and offset is. All CAM programs have to know that information in order to calculate the offset tool path, by any other name it's still "chaining". ] -brewertr-

Every Kurt vise I have ever used the solid or fixed jaw does move or "flex" .001~.002 when you tighten it. The newer 688 models are worse than the older ones (675 model?) If anyone's out there don't flex, then they are not tightening the thing for shit. That being said, they do move or flex in a repeatable manner.....use a torque wrench to tighten them & they repeat all day long.

I also think that for what chick charges for their vise they should at least include a set of soft jaws....I would hate to see the price of their jaws. Not quite as easy to make as Kurts.

Exactly the opposite of what Bob, posted. I believe Bob said if their vises move this much he would notice. I'll resist the opportunity to slam you, Bob because this post was what I was looking for when I started this thread. It's the kind of information that your pals, Tom Brewer, Joe788 and the ex failed CADCAM salesman who frequently posts drunk won't and don't post.

I agree. I' wrote down what their jaw price was. Keep in mind you can buy an adaptor and use standard soft jaws.

I should also note I believe Steve (Garlicdude) Kurt vise won't suffer from this because it's one piece. What I don't like about Steve's model Kurt vise is the lead screw is still not protected well enough and the vise jaws are not as easy to change. I do like how it can be put on it's side. Not sure how much we'd use this feature. I'll make sure this Kurt vise gets a fair shot by discussing it with my co-workers and the boss.

Jon Banquer San Diego, CA

That's the stupidest thing I've read on Usenet so far today.

So, how much does the new Chick vise weigh? Why would Chick build it out of iron instead of aluminum?

Sounds like you may be over tightening your vises. They state 85fl/lbs or so as the max torque, but the regular Kurt vise generates tremendous clamping force with very little torque applied. You shouldn't need more than a speed handle for tightening and breaking loose.

I wouldn't know one way or another, but I do know a guy who put a pipe on the handle, and permanently hobbled a 6" kurt -- was difficult to use after that.

But, I think the idea of a torque wrench on a vise, for reproducibility, is perty ingenious. This would help across the board, ito of vise flex and also ito material flex/compressibility. It would also help level the playing field between Kurts and kurt knockoff's.

Btw, are kurt knockoff's outwardly identical to kurts? I have vises on a swivel base that pretty much resemble kurts, but they have

10 mm jaw holes and slightly different flanges. Are those considered knockoffs as well?

The chick does look perty neat tho. But they didn't quite do it justice, imo, ito of highlighting its features visavis kurt.

iirc, kurt provides a chart of clamping force -- here's one:

They also have a non-pdf chart somewhere. Approx 100:1 force, about 1,000 lbs per 10 lbs on the handle. Funny, tho, 80 lbs does not yield exactly 8 times the force of 10 lbs -- more like 7 times -- but still 7,000+ lbs!

Note the service intervals! I don't think there's a shop on this planet that does anything maintenance-wise, until the vise jams. :)

I've had to disassemble kurts, to clean out the lead screw hole with a wire pipebrush, mounted on a drill. There's sposed to be a plug there to keep debris out, but I've yet to see a kurt with one intact. I stuff a plastic bag there, altho those black round plastic inserts for tubing ought to do it, as well. Or a wood plug.

zymrgy:

Let me ask you this, have these vises you have observed to move .001-.002 ever been tightened in the past by hitting the handle with a plastic hammer? Or been repeatedly tightened by some 600lb gorilla putting his full weight on the end of the vise handle? Overtightening can bow the vise base which can tilt the jaw faces slightly out of parallel, and actually DECREASE the holding power of the vise, since the full face of the vise jaws are no longer in complete contact with your part. Overtightening Kurt vises is unfortunately a more common practice than it should be. IMO, that's one reason spider handles are better for tightening than the longer single bar handles. You can't really WHACK a spider handle without taking a chance of knocking one of the levers right off the handle. Repeated overtightening can make the material of the key and keyway deform enough to sometimes create clearance. Once the process starts it can only get worse over time if such abuse continues. What needs to be done in that case is to unscrew the solid jaw, remachine the keyway in the base AND solid jaw to fit an oversize key, making sure there it's a light tap fit (not a press fit and not a slip fit).

Jon, what is "decent" pressure?

What is the torque wrench setting to get your NEW Kurt vise stationary jaw to move .002"?

If you are using more than 80 Ft. lbs. you are exceeding the design and voiding the warranty.

D675

Torque Clamping Force Ft. Lbs. Pounds 10 989 20 1776 30 2848 40 3628 50 4365 60 5432 70 6111 80 6721

Giving a gorilla a vise w/ handle, cheater bar* and/or hammer does not make a precision machinist.

If I used enough pressure to get a Kurt vise stationary jaw to move .001"-.002" (in other words OVER tightened) a majority of the parts I have ever run would be ruined by the pressure or out of tolerance by the .001"-.002" movement.

Jon,

I know this is a foreign subject for you but you need to care for precision equipment and not abuse them, or else they, like your machines at work are not longer precision.

What happens to a bolt when you apply much more torque than it is designed for? Hint: It doesn't make the bolt or connection stronger.

What happens to a precision vise if you continually apply more torque than it is designed to handle? Hint: It doesn't make it more precise or work better.

D675 Operators Manual

[ Operating Instructions

For proper vise operation insert the handle on to the hex end of the vise. Rotate clockwise to clamp and counterclockwise to unclamp your vise. This handle combined with the correct amount of torque will provide you with all the clamping force you will need to machine your parts.

DO NOT use any other type of pressure to open or close your vise.

The uses of handle extensions, air impact wrenches, breaker bars or hammer strikes are not recommended and will void the warranty if used. This will also cause damage to the thrust bearing and screw threads. If you need more clamping force you may need to upgrade the vise to a larger one. ]

You have used the term quite a lot seemingly without understanding so what exactly does "design intent" mean to you?

Tom

*

Correction,

no

To secure your place as our Energizer-Dummy?

Jon:

It appears you're correct, I made an observational error. I saw the blackness in the poor pictures on the Chick website and made an incorrect assumption that it was an open area. On a closer view of the black area I see what appears to be serrated rails that are moved forward by the internal screw, they seem to have only .5-.75 worth of travel before they hit the vertical stops. BUT this brings to light a couple of more possible issues of concern.

1. The jaw movement mechanism seems too clever by half - a lot of moving/sliding parts that could possibly cause problems. The clearance between the longitudinal holes the serrated rods run in along the sides could become contaminated with chips or debris and become hard to move or at the worst get scored & jammed. The open area around the vertical clamps that act as a stop for the over-travel of the serrated rails could get chips or a piece of material caught in/around them which might restrict the full travel ability and interfere with full closing of the jaw at a particular position.

1. Chips, debris, material, could get caught between the ratcheting mechanism and the rack teeth. That "might" interfere with an equal "pulling" of the movable jaw down, which might twist it slightly out of square horizontally.

2. I also notice from the drawings that the underside has three open pockets that seem to intersect the screw and rails moving apparatus. So when the Chick is mounted on a normal T-slotted table, some of those pockets will be over the T-slots. When I blow off the table after a job I usually blow the T-slots under the Kurts to clear out the chips. If that is done with the Chick, it seems that chips would be very likely be blown up into the pockets that happen to be over the T-slots that you're blowing the chips out of. Even if you were just blowing chips from around the outside, there is a possibility that you'll accidentally blow some chip up in there. I would venture to guess that chips under there may not be advantageous to the functioning of the vise.

Now it's not known if these hypothetical issues might, could, or will, surface in actual use, but IMO, they could be problem areas to keep in mind.

See comments above, concerning Chick open pockets over the T-slots.

You've probably not been machining long enough to remember the crude vises that were used 40 years ago. Even the best of them would be considered pure junk today. The first Kurts (with their angloc design) were far and away superior to the old style vises.

Chick and then on a NEW

You've been corrected by three different people now, concerning the time to drive to San Diego from Saugus. Let me try to put it a different way, it's about 150 miles. To go 150 miles in 1 1/2 you would have to AVERAGE 100 miles per hour. While I don't mind going over 130 from time to time, I don't think I'd want to try to do 140 MPH on every clear straight away, to AVERAGE 100 mph. Does THAT make it a little more clear now?

I'm going to separate the non-vise related irrelevant chit-chat into another sub-thread, to try to keep this one on-topic.

Non-responsive.

The view of the underside of the Chick vise doesn't show any additional hold-down screws. Are there any? If not, then that is a definite design flaw, since the solid jaw can lift under moderate to strong clamping pressure when holding a part at the top of the vise jaws.

Non-responsive.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume there is a pin/tooth or series of teeth, that contact the serrated rails to operate the movable jaw. Now, the contacting tooth/teeth whatever, seem to be retractable by the buttons on the sides of the movable jaw. That may create a weak link that might very well be prone to deflection under moderate to strong clamping pressure. That possible deflection might enable the movable jaw to lift under pressure. Also, if chips got between the tooth/teeth that might cause uneven clamping pressure and affect repeatability.

Non-responsive.

The jaw holding mechanism seems like it would be a weaker holding design than simply using two screws. BTW How are you going to use your Talon Grip vise jaws? An adapter plate? That kind of defeats the point of the quick release feature.

Here is just one of many sites that have quick-jaw changing tooling for Kurt type vises.

>> How is the immovable jaw support held to the base, and what absorbs >> the closing pressure - key? pins? bolts? >

Non-responsive.

If the clamping forces are resisted by pins or bolts instead of a key, then that further limits the clamping forces that the vise can withstand.

Why have you evading these questions? And why have you tried to deflect attention away from the vise into other irrelevant areas? Could it be that you're simply trying to justify your decision in getting your shop to purchase a Chick vise? Do you think your management are reading these posts? LOL

The first thing I'd do if I were you, would be to put an indicator on both the movable and immovable jaws to see how much they move when clamping a part at the top of the vise jaws. If it's a significant amount, perhaps you can return the vise for a refund before you run into other problems.

BTW Did you do your homework and check out these other vises before purchasing the first one demo'd?

LOL I'm sorry Jon, but even you've got to admit that was funny.

Hope Barn doesn't get mad at me for infringement on his turf.