George Sellios' layout

More thoughts of MINE follow. YMMV!

A HUGE part of this argument/discussion relates to semantics. The term various individuals (myself included) have attempted to define have many meanings to many people. These words have been in wide and varied usage for many, many years, and no matter what definition one tries to hang on them, others will disagree.

To me, the term 'model' implies a miniature of a prototype. There HAS to be a specific prototype. The model may be as precise and accurate as possible (not very), or be merely indicative (usually), but it has to represent it's prototype. This would also apply to purely 'virtual' (electronic/computer) modeling. The 'model' may be of some specific apparatus (rolling stock, structures, etc.), or some specific location (track arrangements, scenery, etc.), or both.

The term 'railroad' seems to have two related meanings. It can refer to a system of rails upon which trains run (the physical 'plant'), or to a business operation based on that physical plant. The latter is where 'operation' in the 'model railroad' sense appears. I think this is where a BIG part of the disagreement occurs. Some of us model the physical plant of the railroad, others attempt to duplicate the business operations (as well as, or instead of).

**I** consider the first to be 'modeling' ... the second is NOT 'modeling'. It is some form of simulation. In this context, it's a form of game. The game may include the use of models (but does not need to, as in board games or computer simulations). I find nothing at all wrong with such simulations. If you enjoy 'gaming' (or playing) with your models in some realistic (or not) way, that's just FINE! We nearly all do this to some degree, unless we just leave the models sitting on the shelf, or in boxes. Some, the 'collectors' even enjoy that aspect of the hobby. As long as they enjoy the models, I'd consider them 'model railroaders', even if they never RUN anything (aside from 'dealers', who are businessmen trying to make money from the sale of the models, but with having NO interest in them otherwise ... these are NOT 'model railroaders'.)

The term 'layout' (in the current context) is perhaps the least arguable. It's pretty vague by nature. It means some structure, track, and supporting services (electrical, etc.) upon which to run miniature trains ('model' or not). The layout itself may, or may not, be a model.

Dan Mitchell ==========

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Reply to
Daniel A. Mitchell
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Outstanding! Would that others would be so bold as to say what they really think instead of parroting the "party line." While I do not agree with you on every point, you make a very convincing case for yourself. I am encamped with the group that requires interesting operation to qualify as a model railroad or, as I believe I agreed to call it, a model of a railroad. Your post clearly demonstrates, however, that there are many facets to the gem, not just one. I enjoy building the models or miniatures. I enjoy researching them, constructing them, painting and weathering them and making them look like realistic miniatures. The real Nirvana, however, is reached in the "wargaming" segment. That part of the whole that is the simulation of a real railroad operating a real world to move the freight and passengers in a safe and timely manner.

..................F>

Reply to
Froggy

Whee, another can of worms ... and more of MY opinions. This ought to stir things up nicely and keep the discussion going for weeks ...

Despite a similarity in propulsion technology, I contend that the average 'live steam' miniature locomotive is far less a 'model' of a real steal loco than the average good quality brass model in HO (or whatever). A GREAT many liberties with scale NEED to be taken to get the live steam model to work, and still more are usually taken as a convenience. The smaller the scale, the more liberties MUST be taken.

The "brass" miniature, or even some of the newer plastic offerings, at least LOOKS like it's prototype. The 'insides' mostly can't be seen anyway. I've seen a LOT of 'live steam' miniature locomotives (literally hundreds, I attend some 'live steam' meets) and only perhaps 5% even come CLOSE to being models, or looking like their supposed prototypes (if ANY). Perhaps three quarters are purely freelanced, and I've already stated that I don't consider a freelanced ANYTHING to be a 'model'.

An embossed bolt or nut of scale size and appearance is no less accurate than an actual bolt or nut if the size, material, or thread pitch is WAY off scale, as is common in such models. Most use STANDARD small screw sizes. Only a VERY few (and yes, there are some) make actual miniature screws, that is, scaled down miniatures of standard screws. How many 'live steam' model locos have anything like the correct number of boiler flues or staybolts? Not many. How many have scales sized throttles, valve handles, firedoors, and similar fittings (VERY few). How many prototypes have a 20 ft. wide padded seat on top the coal pile? Or foot pegs like a motorcycle? Or a hidden propane tank in the tender? Or a feedwater pump actuated by a 20 ft. long lever? Cab tops with immese 'sunroofs'? These highly visible things absolutely RUIN any attempt at making the loco a 'model'. Let alone 'Guliver' sitting astride the poor thing.

And, even if you could and did make an accurate miniature (especially in a small scale), it wouldn't work, or work at all well. Steam, air, water, oil and many other things DON'T scale. Try to get a scale sized whistle to SOUND anything like a real one. And, you ALWAYS run afoul of "square-cube" problems of weight, area, and strength (fortunately, models tend to much stronger than their prototypes).

I'm NOT disparaging the 'live steam' bunch. I attend the N.A.M.E.S. (North American Model Engineering Society) shows in Michigan, and mark them as one of the high points of each year. I * LOVE* all these creations, railroad, stationary, and marine engines as well. I greatly admire the craftsmanship that goes into making them. I've never stood anywhere surrounded by so many hours of careful, highly skilled, craftsmanship. Many make the (better) 'models' at an NMRA National meet look like JUNK. But few, especially of the railroad miniatures, are good MODELS. The liberties with scale taken by most of the 'live steam' builders would raise howls of despair if such showed up on an HO loco model.

Master craftsmanship, yes. Marvelous miniature mechanisms, yes. Art forms, yes. But MODELS, mostly no, or only poorly so.

Dan Mitchell ==========

Charles Callaghan wrote:

Reply to
Daniel A. Mitchell

But she was Druish, not Italian...A Druish Princess.

--Dan

Reply to
Dan O'Connor

That's funny...she didn't ~look~ Druish...

Reply to
crosstie

Now, which Oz is that? The one Dorothy went to or the one where Terry Flynn lives?

Reply to
Froggy

That Usa is a japanese city is common knowledge.

A friend of mine imported an order of custom knives he had made in Pakistan. Customs wouldn't release them to him until he had affixed a paint stamp to each one that they were made in Pakistan. Eric

Jim Stewart wrote:

  1. Usa is an old Japanese City.

  1. Many pottery and other exports were marked on the ITEM, not on the SHIPPING CRATE. It was not for customs, but for the consumer that the label was applied. Customs has no regulations on what words are on the item as long as the duty is correctly applied.

Reply to
Eric

Ya know, I think there was a very good reason why I said what I did. Everyone here knows TF is from Oz, but who knows Kidman?

...............F>

Reply to
Froggy

: TCol wrote:

: > On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 06:53:21 +1200, Gregory Procter : > wrote: : >

: > >

: > >

: > >Aredeer wrote: : > >

: > >> >J> Nah. Dang, nothing works. : > >> >

: > >> >What has been missed: USA == United States of *America*. Duh : > >>

: > >> How about Uncle Sucker... that is what everybody is taking us for : > >

: > >"Uncle Stupid" might be nearer the mark. : >

: > ..and but for Uncle Stupid you'd be speaking Japanese.

: That would be "because of Uncle Stupid, we were nearly speaking Japanese". : Without us, you'd be speaking German.

Wait, NZ saved the US from speaking German? I thought the French and Russians did that. The Chinese and NZ saved us from speaking Japanese.

Reply to
S C Sillato

: > Distribution: : >

: > Methinks you are pulling our collective leg. Do you know anyone from : > Mexico, Canada, Brazil, Chile, etc.? I know enough of them to know that they : > are all proud to be Mexicans, Canadians, Chileans, Brazilians..... : >

: > Would they like to be called Americans? Not at the risk of denying their : > own unique nationality. Most of them call me "friend" not American. It's : > easy to generalize when you can't put a face to a name.

: Perhaps it's time for you to think about the issue rather than just reacting!

You want me to think instead of react!!??? Are you nuts!!?? This is R.M.R., thinking is not allowed. You can tell by this trivial thread.

: Ask any German/Fench/Dutch/... citizen if they want to be called "European" at the : risk of denying their own unique nationality.

Of course not, they all hate each other. That's why we laughingly call it the Europeon DIS-Union. I thought we had bigotry in the US. Traveling around Europe showed me that we(the USAians) are amateurs when it comes toracial, ethnic and nationalistic hatred. And the Japanese make us all look like Quakers.

: >

: >

: > BTW, I'm an ex-Rochesterian(NY), living in Ohio(by way of Atlanta, GA : > and Ft Wayne IN.), of Sicilian ancestry, citizen of the USA. Does that : > make me a Gypsy?

: I'm now living in my 26th home around New Zealand, of assorted European decent

- 5th : generation NZer - no, I'm not a gypsy either.

Really, I didn't know that there was that much land in Oz. I had an uncle that lived in 30plus places in his life. We suspected he was in the mob; everytime a car would backfire he'd dive for the floor. He also spent a lot of time out of town right after they'd find a local mobster floating in the river. Curious.....

Reply to
S C Sillato

I do, or at least I want to.

In the Biblical sense, anyway.

Brian

Reply to
Brian Paul Ehni

More to the point, who cares?

Mark.

Reply to
Mark Newton

Aren't they both fictitious places?

Reply to
Gregory Procter

Ah, but did she keep a Dosher table? Bagles and dox....

Jim Stewart

Reply to
Jim Stewart

Sure, we (the previous generation) went to war in September 1939 to help others to regain their freedoms and to maintain existing freedoms in the World. The US sold armaments to both sides.

Generally known as the "Allied Forces" - we (tpg) were amongst the first there, long before Russia and France.

We (the previous generation) went to China's aid against Japan from 1932/33 on until 1940.

Regards, Greg.P.

Reply to
Gregory Procter

Sorry, bad habit of mine. Don't seem to be able to break it. :-(

You yanks seem to hate each other to a similar degree - mind you, I'm equating drive by and school massacres with European politicians calling each other names.

Trust me, you have!

Sure, the KKK is obviously European.

Didn't know the Quakers were into selling anthrax???

Oz?

Well, I've always figured it was better to go where the work is than sit around on the dole.

Reply to
Gregory Procter

Hey, that was Barf's line, wasn't it?

Jay CNS&M Wireheads of the world, unite!

Reply to
JCunington

I heard a bunch of old Toronto (?) PCCs ended up in Buenos Aires.

Jay CNS&M Wireheads of the world, unite!

Reply to
JCunington

14th Amendment: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States...

Jay CNS&M Wireheads of the world, unite!

Reply to
JCunington

Isn't "Oz" for Dorothy?

And

"Aus" and "Aussie(s)" for Australia and Australians?

-- Cheers Roger T.

formatting link
of the Great Eastern Railway

Reply to
Roger T.

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