Gorre and Daphetid

The Ninth is better (IMHO). 8^)

Of course you know, after all Mark is the expert layout builder. To date you have produced no layout that can be compared with Gorre and Daphetid. I am still waiting to know what exhibition layouts you have helped with.

I believe it would be 80% better than the Fifth, no?

Fifth is HO, Ninth is O. Better? Besides who ever plead the ninth?

Jim Stewart

CAN WE GET BACK TO GORRE AND DAPHETID OR LEAVE THIS GROUP?

Greg.P.

Salvé

So what? he doesnt need to have equalled or passed this exemplary layout, I cannot surpass in quality John Constable but this in no way belittles my own attempts at water colour or the fact that I recognise his genius in what he created, the same applies to any area of achievement, the G and D was for US modelling a watershed layout so to speak just as John Aherns " Madder Valley Railway" inspired generations of British modellers and A.R.Walkelys original and FIRST(!) HO layout( "Railway in a Suitcase!") inspired everyone who wanted to model smaller than o scale( this was1923!) ,There are some superb and equally as important layouts for continental outline and probably for Oz too! I doubt if the Pendon Museum's layout will ever be excelled but hey! its too soon to say never, so stop picking unnecessary holes, criticise by all means but atleast stay on this planet when you do and keep your criticismswithin the realms of reality...and possibly politeness? Beowulf

That's it Don, you know these kids have a short attention span. Anything older than last month is outdated and now bad.

Not a problem Greg, you can leave if you want. No one is holding you prisoner.

I'll disagree with you there, Mark!

Much of the G&D was 'tongue in cheek' to be sure, but still it was very, VERY nice, especially considering WHEN it was built. Most layouts at the time had hardly any scenery, were basic flat rectangular tables, and were far smaller.

John Allen popularized, if not invented, many of the concepts we now use in model railroading, whether the whimsy is retained or not. The G&D was both innovative for the whole hobby, and inspirational to many people. It showed what COULD be done, whether one chose to emulate it or not.

Dan Mitchell ==========

Mark Newt>

THAT's the WHOLE point!

Today there are LOTS of things we revere because of what they WERE, rather than what they are. Antiques of almost any form fall in this category. Few are really as good as modern items. And people still strive to restore or emulate them with period craftsmanship, abhorring the modern mass produced product no matter how good it is.

Steam locos are a fine example!

Dan Mitchell ==========

Mark Newt>

Dan, you and Mark are both correct in some ways. Having been to several operating sessions on the G&D in the 60s and 70s I can see it from both sides. The first time I saw it, I was by myself. I had ridden my motorcycle from San Francisco down to Monterey for the weekend. My brother was in the Naval Postgraduate School there getting his masters in PolSci and I was stationed at Hunter's point.

John Allen was in the hobby shop when I walked in and we started talking. I told him that I knew of a really great layout that was somewhere in the area called the Gory and Defeated and I asked him if he knew of it and how to contact the owner. It turns out that he did indeed know of it and he was able to put me in touch with the owner right there in the store.

I felt like a pilgrim who had unexpectedly run in to Jesus at the well.

He took me to his home and we spent several hours that afternoon in the railroad room. It was great. I came back many times after that to operate and met some very interesting people and had a good time.

So then, I have been there/done that as the saying goes.

I believe that I can say that you are both correct in your summations. It was THE avatar of the hobby in its time. Today,........well, today I doubt if it would pass muster. If the G&D were still with us it would be the subject of the same kinds of debates that George Sellios' F&SM is, and for the same reasons. The G&D was a caricature, not a model; not a historically or geographically correct one anyway. The cold truth is that it looked better in photos than it did in real life. Never the less it was impressive in its day. It still is.

We have a great deal for which to thank John Allen. He propelled the state of the art to new heights in record time. It is well that the Gorre & Daphetid merged into the ashes of time, for now it may be forever venerated and idealized instead of compared with hindsight to the much more advanced model railways of today.

Certainly, which would you prefer, gore or delaped?

James R Stewart

Can't much argue with that.

While it's sad that John Allen passed away, and the railroad was lost, perhaps it all happened at the right time. He was at the height of his popularity and respect. That's how most of the hobby will remember him. As someone else said, it's good to know when a project is complete.

Of course, it's also not fair to compare the G&D of 40 years ago with such railroads today. A lot has changed, and, had John lived, so likely would a lot on the G&D. the G&D of Y2K, had it survived, would NOT have been the same as the G&D of 1960.

The same thing happens with prototype railfanning. As a GN 'nut', I hear lots of people bemoaning the loss of various parts of what remains of the old GN. A station, a bridge, a line rerouting, cars and locos scrapped, repaints, etc. They blame BN or BNSF. What they miss is that most of the same things WOULD have happened if the GN was still with us. It's just 'progress', for better or worse.

Dan Mitchell ==========

Froggy@The, P>

What would I give to be able to drive up and down the GM&O between St. Louis and Mobile: to see modern, brand new, red and white geeps and SD assaulting Alto Pass; to watch as a hundred fifty yellow reefers loaded with bananas roared through Citronel or Buckatunna; to see two hundred woodracks being dragged out of the rich pine plantations of Mississippi? Oh, but it is not to be. There is no GM&O, there are no woodracks or paper mills to consume their resinous cargo. Even the tracks are gone. When I wanted to go to work on the GM&O more than 40 years ago, President Glen Brock told me not to do it. "There's no future in the railroad" he said. And now, They are both gone.

Michael P Gabriel wrote: >

Do you understand the diff between opinion and fact?

Yes. Do you?

Back around 1962-3 I was a young lad running Maerklin trains on snap together tinplate track. A very dog-eared copy of a US magazine/book fell into my hands. It included an article on the original Gorre and Daphetid. It really was a turning point in my view of the possibilities of the hobby.

Regards, Greg.P.

Do you understand the diff between opinion and fact?

Yes. Do you? What's your point?

Another irrelevant and misleading analogy. You're attempting to compare chalk and cheese.

Or do you really believe that model railroading has not progressed since

Terry Flynn wrote: >

If you have anything you have to say, do so via e-mail, or in person. I'm not wasting anymore time trading slurs and insults with you on any newsgroup. Likewise, if you want to see my layouts, come and visit me, as I have suggested previously. The ball is in your court.