(AD) Countdown Hobbies Debt Elimination Offer

Larry,

I have gone over this several times, and will do it one more time for anyone who cares to understand. Obviously, many (most?) either don't want to understand or have been programmed to accept whatever they're told by authorities. All I can tell them is read, dig, research, find out what is really going on.

Now, if the "bank" monetizes your signature for, let's say $5000, they have just created $5000 in their own computer. When you buy something, they pay the merchant with "money" that never existed. You have to pay that "debt" (maybe with interest) in real money you earned by work. That created money, if it is to belong to anyone, should belong to the person in whose name it was created. The credits are yours and mine, not the banks!!!

Kevin

"4" Kevin Nolan Countdown Hobbies;

"3" NAR 16148 7 P.T. Barnum Square, Bethel, CT 06801-1838 "2" TRA 0943 Orders: 800-810-0281; Info: 203-790-9010 (voice/fax) "1" NARCONN/CTRA snipped-for-privacy@cs.com "0" NRHSA "Put Fun & Excitement in Your Life"

Amen!

Kevin

"4" Kevin Nolan Countdown Hobbies;

"3" NAR 16148 7 P.T. Barnum Square, Bethel, CT 06801-1838 "2" TRA 0943 Orders: 800-810-0281; Info: 203-790-9010 (voice/fax) "1" NARCONN/CTRA snipped-for-privacy@cs.com "0" NRHSA "Put Fun & Excitement in Your Life"

I do? Where did I say anything like that? What I said was, if a bank monetizes your signature and creates "money" out of thin air in and with your name, that "money" should belong to you, not them.

Kevin

"4" Kevin Nolan Countdown Hobbies;

"3" NAR 16148 7 P.T. Barnum Square, Bethel, CT 06801-1838 "2" TRA 0943 Orders: 800-810-0281; Info: 203-790-9010 (voice/fax) "1" NARCONN/CTRA snipped-for-privacy@cs.com "0" NRHSA "Put Fun & Excitement in Your Life"

Well said.

Kevin

"4" Kevin Nolan Countdown Hobbies;

"3" NAR 16148 7 P.T. Barnum Square, Bethel, CT 06801-1838 "2" TRA 0943 Orders: 800-810-0281; Info: 203-790-9010 (voice/fax) "1" NARCONN/CTRA snipped-for-privacy@cs.com "0" NRHSA "Put Fun & Excitement in Your Life"

The problem is they can have any value system they want. They may decide that eating people, raping children, robbing homes, sacrificing virgins, shooting people randomly, blowing up buildings and poisoning headache remedies are good values. Who are you and I to impose our restrictive views on them? That is the Pandora's Box that opens when we decide to make our own values and not get them from above. It's temporal vs. eternal, situational vs. universal.

Kevin

"4" Kevin Nolan Countdown Hobbies;

"3" NAR 16148 7 P.T. Barnum Square, Bethel, CT 06801-1838 "2" TRA 0943 Orders: 800-810-0281; Info: 203-790-9010 (voice/fax) "1" NARCONN/CTRA snipped-for-privacy@cs.com "0" NRHSA "Put Fun & Excitement in Your Life"

Thank you. I've learned my lesson. I mistakenly thought people who I knew and who knew me would be somewhat open-minded to being helped out of crushing debt. Many were. The loud ones obviously weren't.

Kevin

"4" Kevin Nolan Countdown Hobbies;

"3" NAR 16148 7 P.T. Barnum Square, Bethel, CT 06801-1838 "2" TRA 0943 Orders: 800-810-0281; Info: 203-790-9010 (voice/fax) "1" NARCONN/CTRA snipped-for-privacy@cs.com "0" NRHSA "Put Fun & Excitement in Your Life"

They don't Larry.

Kevin

"4" Kevin Nolan Countdown Hobbies;

"3" NAR 16148 7 P.T. Barnum Square, Bethel, CT 06801-1838 "2" TRA 0943 Orders: 800-810-0281; Info: 203-790-9010 (voice/fax) "1" NARCONN/CTRA snipped-for-privacy@cs.com "0" NRHSA "Put Fun & Excitement in Your Life"

Then you're even! If the money was created in your name and you get goods or services, everybody's even.

Kevin

"4" Kevin Nolan Countdown Hobbies;

"3" NAR 16148 7 P.T. Barnum Square, Bethel, CT 06801-1838 "2" TRA 0943 Orders: 800-810-0281; Info: 203-790-9010 (voice/fax) "1" NARCONN/CTRA snipped-for-privacy@cs.com "0" NRHSA "Put Fun & Excitement in Your Life"

According to Kevin Nolan :

Nonsense. The bank paid, on your behalf, money to a merchant for something you purchased. Under a contract where you promised to reimburse the bank for what you purchase.

You have a moral and legal obligation to fulfill your contract and repay the bank.

Anything else is theft. Just as much as walking into a store, pocketing something, and walking out without paying for it.

It is _exactly_ the same thing.

The DSI bafflegab is nothing more than rationalizing theft. And paying handsomely to learn how to steal.

The only problem with this thought, is it isn't complete. After the bank "creates" this money, you then ask them to give it to a store on your behalf, promising to pay it back. If you just left it there "in your name" you might be able to collect some sort of interest like an escrow account. But if you authorize them to pay your bills our buy you some rocket stuff with that money....

steve

"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs." - Matthew

7:6

"Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: `You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' " - Matthew 13:13b-15

"Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets. But I tell you who hear Me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you." - Luke 6:26-28

"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." - Matthew 5:11-12

Kevin

"4" Kevin Nolan Countdown Hobbies;

"3" NAR 16148 7 P.T. Barnum Square, Bethel, CT 06801-1838 "2" TRA 0943 Orders: 800-810-0281; Info: 203-790-9010 (voice/fax) "1" NARCONN/CTRA snipped-for-privacy@cs.com "0" NRHSA "Put Fun & Excitement in Your Life"

Gosh, I can't beleive I got into this. Maybe it's because I think I can help Kevin, who seems like a nice guy, out of too much trouble. So, let's try the math picture and see if it helps.

Kevin asks bank to "create" some money in his name, where money never before existed. They give $5,000 real money to pay for the motorcycle that Kevin just bought.

Bank really has zero, so does Kevin to start. The motorcycle dealer has a $5,000 dollar bike.

Kevin + motorcycle dealer - motorcycle dealer + $5,000 Bank -5,000

Kevin, If you don't pay the bank the $5,000 that they paid on your behalf to the dealer, then you are stealing.

steve

HUH?

So you think they should pay your bills for NOTHING in return?

In your world, you want to buy something with a credit card. They bank will pay the merchant.

You feel the transaction is done at this point?

Ok, here is what I want.

I want to buy rocket motor parts from YOU. Extend me credit please as I really like the way you think.

You send me the rocket parts. You "monitize" my signiture when you extend me credit.

This transaction is done at this point because you "monitized" my signiture.

No cash out of my pocket.

I get the rocket parts.

You can "monitize" my signiture all the way to the bank.

Kevin,

Does this apply to your home mortgage too?

They bank paid for your house. They "monitized" your signiture when you signed for it.

Call it even with them.

You house is paid for.

You should not pay the bank for it. They "monitized" your signiture.

Oh, he's no fool, Bullpup. That would be stealing!!

steve

They sure seem to fit the mold.

I also find it somewhat amusing, and rather telling, that, when people argue with you off the top of their heads, descending to mere contradiction, you reply to every message ("No it doesn't!" "Yes it does!" "No it doesn't!"), but when someone challenges you on substantive issues and citing legal definitions (like I did regarding the issue of whether a contract can be valid with implied, rather than explicit, terms), you silently ignore the posts.

The bottom line, for me, is this:

Regardless of the "creation myth" surrounding the money that your bank uses to pay merchants on your behalf, you got merchandise from the vendor, and they deserve to be paid for it. By using a credit card to pay the vendor, you and the vendor both authorized the bank to act as your agent to pay the vendor on your behalf. You owe the bank as much money as they paid the vendor for you.

Forget how they "created" the money -- think of it in terms of black boxes:

Vendor ( gives merchandise worth $x, receives $x) Bank (gives $x to vendor) --- down by $x at this point You (gets merchandise worth $x) --- up by $x at this point

The only way to close the loop between these "boxes", is for you to give the bank $x, which will leave you all *even*.

The bank makes their money through being able to loan out the money (at interest) that they take in from depositors, and only needing to keep some small fraction on hand to pay withdrawals, since not everyone comes in to withdraw at once. They also make money in transaction fees that they charge the vendor for the convenience of accepting credit cards.

The vendor makes money by selling things at a markup over what he paid for them.

You feel that the merchandise is worth $x to you, or you wouldn't have bouht it. So, *by definition*, you received a fair amount of value for the money you paid.

Explain to me again how you don't owe the money?

- Rick "moral imperative" Dickinson

By Liz Pulliam Weston

Okay, it's official: There is no argument so stupid that somebody won't buy it.

I thought the folks who fell for the "income tax is unconstitutional" scam were pretty soft-headed. But they're geniuses compared to the ones signing up for the latest "debt elimination" swindle.

Here's how it works: For a stiff upfront fee -- sometimes $2,500 or more -- you can get a certificate to take to your bank that supposedly eliminates your obligation to repay your mortgage, credit cards or other debt.

What the victims get, of course, is an entirely bogus document that starts them down the road to trashed credit, foreclosure, financial ruin and possible federal fraud charges.

"People fall for this . . . and then they start getting collections notices. They don't really understand what's going on," said FBI spokesman Paul Bresson. "This is a growing problem, particularly in the past five or six months."Point. Click. Pay. Pay your bills in seconds with MSN Bill Pay.

The Feds are really angry Spread via Web sites, e-mail and those ubiquitous hotel ballroom seminars, these scams have proliferated to the point that the Federal Reserve Board and the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, which regulates the national banks, have sent out alerts to the banks they regulate. The warnings tell banks not only to be on guard against this scam but also to confiscate any documents that the borrower presents and send a suspicious activity report to the FBI -- the same kind of report used to alert the bureau to information about possible terrorists, money launderers and other criminals.

"From the tenor of (the warnings) they're really mad," said attorney Gary Van Ryzin, chief legal compliance officer for Great Lakes Higher Education Corp., a student loan servicer and guarantor based in Madison, Wis. "They take the integrity of the financial system pretty seriously."

In the past few months, Van Ryzin's company has been presented with several of these bogus documents, some of which resemble legitimate certificates such as bankers' acceptances, which are a kind of payment used between banks. Like other student lenders, Great Lakes is required to send suspicious activity reports to the FBI when sent the phony papers -- a reality that agonizes Van Ryzin.

"Some of these (scam victims) are the same age as my daughter," Van Ryzin said. "Do I want to send the FBI out after them? That's a tough call."

The debt-elimination promoters make a variety of arguments to support their outlandish assertions. Sometimes they claim the Declaration of Independence condones their approach, while other times they question the authority of the Federal Reserve or the legitimacy of the U.S. dollar. Like the anti-income tax idiots, they quote selectively from official documents, court rulings and other authoritative-sounding sources to "prove" their ridiculous theories. Some, in a monstrous bit of circular reasoning, denounce the Fed and then claim the central bank actually approves their activities.

In fact, their techniques are so similar that many regulators suspect a few of the same yahoos who promoted the anti-tax schemes are behind some of the debt elimination scams.

The $2,500 fee is really a $2,500 theft The stakes seem to be higher, however. While many of the anti-tax folks stuck to selling books or seminars, the debt elimination scamsters typically ask for an upfront fee of $2,500 to $3,000 and may demand an additional 15% cut of any debt "eliminated." Sometimes, they even suggest taking out a second mortgage to pay the fee for "wiping out" the first mortgage.

"It's another opportunity (for the promoters) to steal money," the FBI's Bresson said. "The Internet presents a lot of opportunities to . . . commit fraud against unsuspecting consumers."

But while it took years for the slow-moving IRS to finally clean the tax protesters' clocks, ruin comes much more quickly for those who fall for debt removal schemes. The first late payment can devastate a credit score and result in higher interest rates. After a few months, the accounts are turned over to collections -- further damaging the credit score and opening the borrower up to lawsuits and wage garnishment. Foreclosures can happen just as quickly, and your auto lender can repossess your car as soon as a day after you miss your first payment.

Denver attorney Jill Beaty, who works for a collections law firm, said she has pursued civil action against nine of these cases recently, winning judgments each time, with another case pending and 10 more awaiting action on her desk.

"(The protestors are) filing fake arbitration awards with the courts and asserting that the debt doesn't exist," Beaty said. She had number of cases where the protesters all filed exactly the same arguments. "They're filing something they found on the Internet, and they don't really understand what they're doing."

It's an open question how quickly law enforcement agencies will take up the charge against this rip-off. The FBI's Bresson said the agency is investigating several of the schemes. The burgeoning scam, however, is still in its early days, and state and local prosecutors have yet to get into the act. While regulators are most likely to go after the scam's promoters, borrowers who persist in making frivolous debt-elimination arguments -- or who try to pass bogus paperwork off as legitimate bank documents -- could face fines and jail time just as their anti-tax counterparts have.

If it's too good to be true . . . Sadly, some of the people who stumble on these schemes were originally looking for legitimate ways to handle their debts, such as credit counseling. But a single phone call to the Fed, one of their lenders or a lawyer could have exposed the swindle for what it was.

There are a few old clichés that apply here, the most obvious being that "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is." More importantly, though, "You can't cheat an honest man." If people weren't so willing to grasp for quick-fix solutions for their financial problems, rather than doing the hard work necessary to solve them, they could smell this con coming a mile away.

Liz Pulliam Weston's column appears every Monday and Thursday, exclusively on MSN Money. She also answers reader questions in the Your Money message board.

Wally,

No I can't. That's the difference many of you don't seem to get.

Kevin

"4" Kevin Nolan Countdown Hobbies;

"3" NAR 16148 7 P.T. Barnum Square, Bethel, CT 06801-1838 "2" TRA 0943 Orders: 800-810-0281; Info: 203-790-9010 (voice/fax) "1" NARCONN/CTRA snipped-for-privacy@cs.com "0" NRHSA "Put Fun & Excitement in Your Life"

Anyone can find ways to use almost anything to commit terrorist acts. Ryder trucks have already been used in at least two major bombings, but I don't see you campaigning to have Ryder trucks added to the list of ATF-regulated materials. (Not to mention alarm clocks, timers, altimeters, batteries, etc.) High explosives for warheads and radioactive materials are all highly regulated already -- anyone one can get ahold of those things won't be stopped by regulating hobby rocket motors. And by your own admission, regulating those materials has not been effective at keeping them out of the wrong hands, so why would you expect regulation of rocket motors to be more effective? Bio/chem weapons can be spread much more effectively and efficiently by a multitude of other delivery methods.

No, freedom is more important, but I wouldn't expect an ATF stooge like yourself to understand that. Freedom requires risk.

Thank God! We certainly don't need people with your attitude in this hobby.

Then what the heck are you doing here? Go troll somewhere else.