ATFE Anti-rocketry Video

Please cite the law, in a IFC/NFPA state, that a dealer must verify "certification"

Bob

baDBob:

from NFPA 1127:

3.3.5* Certified User. An individual, a distributor, or a seller who has been tested or otherwise examined by a recognized

organization that is acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction and has been found to be qualified to purchase, possess,

and use high power rocket motors.

5.1 Sales Only to Certified Users. A high power rocket motor

or motor reloading kit shall be sold to, shipped to, stored by, and used only by certified users.

5.3 Maintenance of Sales Records.

5.3.1 High power rocket motor manufacturers, distributors, and sellers shall maintain a list of those certified users to

whom they have sold high power rocket motors or motor reloading kits that includes the following information:

(1) Name and address of the purchaser

(2) Name and address of the national user organization that has certified the user

(3) Type and number of high power solid-propellant rocket motors or motor reloading kits sold to the certified user

(4) Date of sale and shipment of high power rocket motors or motor reloading kits to the certified user

5.3.2 The manufacturer, distributor, or seller shall make available, on request, the records specified in 5.3.1 to any law

enforcement person or the authority having jurisdiction.

5.4.2.2 Upon request and receipt of applicable fees, if any, confirmation of an active member's user certification shall be

provided to the following:

(1) Law enforcement official or authority having jurisdiction

(2) Manufacturer of high power rocket motors and motor reload kits

(3) Retailer licensed to sell, distribute, or offer for sale high power rocket motors and motor reloading kits

reloading kit to any person who is not a certified user, other than the transfer of a single high power rocket

motor or motor reloading kit for the purpose of user certification

Chapter 6 Prohibited Activities

(4) Selling, offering for sale, exposing for sale, or making available a rocket motor or motor reloading kit that does

not comply with the requirements of this code and that has not been certified in accordance with NFPA 1125,

Code for the Manufacture of Model Rocket and High Power Rocket Motors

(5) Making, operating, launching, flying, testing, activating, discharging, or otherwise experimenting with high power

rocket motors, motor reloading kits, or pyrotechnic modules that have not been certified in accordance with

NFPA1125, Code for the Manufacture of Model Rocket and High Power Rocket Motors, other than for the purpose of evaluation

of new high power rocket motor technology by a recognized national user organization or an authority having

jurisdiction, provided that all other requirements of this code are met and all activities are in accordance with applicable

laws, regulations, and ordinances

(9) Selling or transfer of a high power rocket motor or motor

reloading kit to any person who is not a certified user, other than the transfer of a single high power rocket

motor or motor reloading kit for the purpose of user certification

(10) Possession, storage, or use of a high power rocket motor or motor reloading kit by any person who is not a certified

user, other than the possession, storage, or use of a single high power rocket motor or motor reloading kit

for the purpose of user certification

shockie B)

Send them a PO and after you discharge them file Chapter 11 and if they enforce payment, File Chapter 7.

:)

Jerry

Thanks. Didn't have my copy here with me.

Also, didn't realize that distributors had to be certified. Interesting. No wonder the number of distributors is so low.

Bob

Jerry is an expert at payment avoidance.

If unguided rockets are such a powerful anti-aircraft weapon, why has so much money been spent on developing sophisticated missile guidance systems by nations the world over?

Anyone feel they would have a chance of hitting a moving target with an unguided rocket - the amount of luck needed would be immense, even if the rocket could be guaranteed to fly straight and light immediately.

Wouldnt a good ol'-fashioned gun be a much more effective weapon against a moving aircraft? The bullet leaves the muzzle a fraction of a second after the user demands, at several thousand feet per second, making it much easier to hit the target.

However, I suppose the good ol' boys in power wouldnt want to take away the freedom of owning an arsenal of powerful weapons. I'm glad I don't live in the US, your government seem to have gone mad.

Is everyone sure the ATFE (?) tests are a hoax? Seems to stupid to believe!

My 2 cents (or whatever the UK equivalent is)

-- Niall Oswald ============= UKRA 1345, L0

yes, thats TRA/NARs stranglehold on the industry

and IMO it is unlikely that they would support NFPA recognition of any new certification organizations which would threaten their joint monopoly

- iz

THEY don't have to support a new organization. Get enough motors and dealers associated with a new club, and knock the 2 existing clubs outta there.

Joel. phx

Who thinks they're a hoax? Why?

I'd put money down on them taking some sort of action based on the video they produce.

Joel. phx

the NAR/TRA only has a stranglehold, if you want to call it that(I don't), over rocketry related activities in the 15 IFC/NFPA compliant states... Its my interpretation that the NAR/TRA has no authority whatsoever over the remaining 35 states as they are not IFC/NFPA compliant....In these remaining

35 states(check your local jurisdictions) there is no need for engines or people to be certified other than what may be in appliciable state or local laws.

You would need a "new" certifying authority ONLY if you wished to sell certified engines in the IFC/NFPA compliant states to NAR/TRA members ..... You need NO certifying authority to sell uncertified/unregulated rocket motors in the non IFC/NFPA compliant states to non NAR/TRA members....

The NAR/TRA can not force a rocketeer who lives in a non IFC/NFPA compliant state from purchasing, or using uncertfied/unregulated rocket motors, unless said rocketeer is a member of the NAR/TRA and volunteers to adhere to both the NAR/TRA regulations including the IFC/NFPA codes.....

The NAR/TRA needs to re-examine their policy here of making people who want to be BOTH a member or the NAR or TRA AND an independent rocketeer flying under state law more user friendier.

For example, why can't I fly competition model rocketry under the colors and regulations of the NAR, using certified motors on one hand, while the next day or later that afternoon, or next week fly as an independent rocketeer , under my state laws, using unregulated motors in my amateur sport rocketry flying? WHY am I being limited in my choices?

shockie B)

I suppose we could form one specifically to test the theory.

Or to say it another way, why do the vendors require certs from all customers?

Bob

Correct.

And an expert at settling debt in a way of benefit to the owee.

This is not where I was going with my observation. Why are vendors/distributors required to be certified?

Bob

Since manufacturers make products specifically to serve the lowest common demoninator in ALL 50 states, it makes sense to raise the demonimator, not lower it further.

Therefore those 15 states are the barometer for "general access" rocketry.

Further the STATED PURPOSE of NFPA-1122 was to set a standard for rocketry to improve access as a result of its adoption in the various states. To date it has literally done the precise opposite.

My name is Jerry Irvine.

To kill HPR by reg where it cannot be done by law or market forces. The Boles provision.

Just make consumer certs "advisory" and 99.99% of the population becomes a target market customer.

ANXIOUS to join, attain "advisory" levels and buy magazines, even if only promised and not delivered. Think of the possibilities!

Jerry

"Don't let the bastards wear you down Jerry!"

-Tom Cloud

"I know of NO (for profit) magazine that ALREADY had its 'subscriber base' established BEFORE it ever printed its first issue - which was EXACTLY the 'gift' given Mr. Kelly at LDRS 11. And then one wonders why Kelly has made mention in the (recent) past that the magazine was losing money and he might just 'give it back'? Does anybody besides myself wonder at the hypocrisy of 'giving back' something that was stolen?"

- John Cato

"It appears (in many more examples than just this), that Mr. Rogers was having extreme difficulty understanding the very obvious, purely fiduciary, and clearly moral obligation to the trust granted to him by the *members* he was obligated to represent."

- John Cato

"Until then, I'll trust that AT isn't being forced to hire visually handicapped folks at the plant where they assemble the reload kits (i.e.- I'll just keep my faith in their Quality Control process)."

- ye of way too much faith, er, Norm

I can think of 4 volunteer manufacturers by this time next hour.

Manufacturers NEED it to be a third party or they would just do it themselves, which the NFPA seems to permit and allow.

This is yet another provision in NFPA regs NOT enforced by TRA or NAR. Selective enforcement.

IIRC with black powder the distributor must have a permit, but the end user does not.......so why if they are demanding a permit of the end user do they require a permit of the vendor, and vis a vers?

I would assume some(most,all?) dealers require "certification" as some dealers require an LEUP to purchase HPR....

In the IFC/NFPA regulated environment, it stands to reason that if you have to be certed to purchase and possess, then the dealer selling must also be certed......as he also is a "possessor".... and also a "purchaser" from the wholesaler or manufacturer....

which opens up a new can of worms... Can a dealer that is certed L1 sell L2/L3 motors? Or is the dealer required to be certed to the level that he is selling? shockie B)